Zhang Zhuan and martial arts...

[Surf Taut]

Remember that standing practice at it's core is isometrics. Properly done you should notice your strength and power increase over time. IMO, focus on this and don't get all wrapped up in the Qi cultivation thing.

I agree with Bob & Buddy in that 40 min. is max. When I trained in Yi Quan we would hold 8 postures a max of 5 min each. My teacher said that any longer was counter productive. One of the best write ups on standing practice I have seen is in the book Xing Yi Nei Gong - Xing Yi Health Maintenance and Internal Strength Development edited & compiled by Dan Miller & Tim Cartmell. Tim does a chapter on standing practice which is really straight forward & easy to understand.

[jun_erh]

changing the postures evolves naturally I think. You get tired of the first posture but still have energy left.

[imperialtaichi]

Originally posted by cam
Correct posture, rooting and just learning how to relax(loosen, lenghten) the body.

There is more to Zhang Zhuan than "don't just stand there, do nothing!", although most people continue practicing Zhang Zhuan for years and years at this level without progressing.

Of course, while using ZZ to improve ones rooting, posture, isometric strength, relaxation etc is useful and important, the more important goal is to learn to move one's energy both inside and outside the body. However, very very few people were taught the method, so this "doing nothing" method became the norm as most people are doing it this way although it is not entirely correct.

Take the Xinyi San Ti stance for example, when practiced properly, not only does one developes the ability to withstand a strong push, but one would also develope the skills to "fire" someone out with incredible power without much effort.

Even the Wing Chun Tan Sau stance is immensely powerful, yet hardly anyone knows how to practice it properly, and turn it into a pure isometric conditioning exercise. Many people practices this great art for years without even knowing the energetics behind this most fundamental exercise.

The real ZZ methods are almost lost these days, as nobody wants to learn the real thing anymore. Except for a lucky few.

Cheers,
John

[cam]

Yikes! I really have to learn how to spell.
Now as I have already stated, I am a raw beginner, my skill level is just slightly past zero. In fact over the last year my ability to get formal training has been next to impossible due to work retraints though I have been practicing what I have learned daily. I can't wait for my teacher to tell me how badly I've messed things up
Now John, while I appreciate all comments, when someone says that they have the true secrets, the secrets that most everyone else are missing, my bull**** alarm just starts screaming.
I have seen demonstrations of Wu style, Eddie Wu's senior students, a high level Yang stylist and various Chen stylists and they were all equally impressive. I have also seen things that, well lets just say I keep a tight grip on my wallet

[imperialtaichi]

Originally posted by cam
Now John, while I appreciate all comments, when someone says that they have the true secrets, the secrets that most everyone else are missing, my bull**** alarm just starts screaming.

Hey, there is NO SECRET. There are people who are willing to teach you the real thing for next to nothing. The problems is, those people who really know their art are usually not good businessmen so they may not have big famous schools, so you may have to really dig around China to find them.

And because they go against the flow of popular methods, people won't even bother to learn from them. For example, the Tian Style Bagua is a very very powerful style of Bagua; but reject by popular public because it is different from the main stream. There is a good teacher in Sydney that teaches it for AUD$15 per 2hr lessons but he has only a small student numbers because he is not a good businessman, and he is doing it for love not fame and fortune.

If someone, one day, decided to teach you something that goes against what you have learned, are you going to accepted it with an open mind, or dismiss it as incorrect?

MacDonalds is the most popular burger restuarant in the world; but do they make the best burgers?

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

Originally posted by crimsonking
On the lucky few in ZZ - would you care to name some of the lucky few?

I don't want to sound biased, so I will only give examples outside the Yang Jian Hou tradition; and only the ones still living, less famous but **** powerful none the less:

Pan Yue (Xinyi) in Taiwan
Tian Ke Yan (Yin Yang Bagua Zhang) in Beijing
Tsui Seuong Tien (Wing Chun) in Hong Kong

I had personally met, and get "fired off" by TKY and TST, yet to meet PY, although a friend of mine had met him and was most impressed by PY.

If you have a chance, meet them, get hit/bounced by them and experience for yourself.

Cheers,
John

[cam]

How about Chen Xiaowang, Feng Zhiqiang, Zhu Tiancai........ would any of these individuals make your list?

[Buddy]

"The real ZZ methods are almost lost these days, as nobody wants to learn the real thing anymore. Except for a lucky few."

Oh brother.

[BAI HE]

What did you expect? Did you look at his site?

[Anjentao]

Interesting view on the total amount of time to practice the ZZ. Just to clarify, is the general concensus 40 min. total on each leg or 20 min. each leg for a total of 40 min.?

What about diminshing returns? Has anyone experienced adverse or negative results? If so, what were they?

Any other practices before or after ZZ that people do?


"The real ZZ methods are almost lost these days, as nobody wants to learn the real thing anymore. Except for a lucky few."

John, I take that to mean that if you are diligent in your practice and you practice properly, you can consider yourself lucky enough to experience the benefits of this training. Is that what you meant, or am I off base?


Best wishes!

[imperialtaichi]

Originally posted by cam
How about Chen Xiaowang, Feng Zhiqiang, Zhu Tiancai........ would any of these individuals make your list?

Yes, of course, these people are most powerful and I respect their abilities. I did not include them in the previous post because they are famous enough and everybody knows them already. I just wanted to point out a few powerfulful ones and less famous.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

Originally posted by Anjentao
John, I take that to mean that if you are diligent in your practice and you practice properly, you can consider yourself lucky enough to experience the benefits of this training. Is that what you meant, or am I off base?

Hello Anjentao,

If you practice well with the right methods, you WILL improve in skills and power very very quickly. In matter of months, not years. But of course, even with inefficient methods, you will still improve, but slowly.

My quest to seek knowledge had taken me to see famous and popular school who had basically given me nothing; had spent thousands of dollars on teachers who taught me "secret techniques" who were basically just trying to cheat me money. Had spent years of practice and hard work with only minimal improvement.

You see, there are teachers who would cheat you money by charging you a lot of money to teach you useless techniques; and there are ones who knows powerful techniques but would never teach you, and just tell you to "practice hard" and somehow you will get it miraculusely after 5 or 10 years. By then, when you realise you are not getting it, he had already made 5 years of money out of you and again you walk out with nothing.

I was lucky in the end to see some real powerful masters in China who shared many useful methods with me. I just do not want others to waste their time and money like I did many years ago and start improving their skill level quickly with proper methods.

So often, you offer free advice to people to help them overcome their inefficiencies, yet because your method is "different" from main stream you ended up with eggs on your face.

My advice is, if your teacher is genuine and nice and putting his/her heart into helping you and want to share everything he/she knows with you, stick with him/her! He/she is the type who you can trust and will always be there for you! But if your teacher does not care how you practice, does not constantly guide and correct you, does not want to answer your questions and just tell you to "practice", or charge you an arm and a leg for some secret techniques, then you know there is something wrong.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

Originally posted by crimsonking
Thanks, agreed on TST.

Hello Crimsonking,

Yes, first time I met TST was almost 20yrs ago. He told me the Key to the Tan Sau Stance was to imagine the structure as a cone, and he kept on repeating "Gone Chut Hui" which means "rush it out". Of course, at that time, I could not understand how on one hand you are not moving, and yet you have to rush it out, and to rush "what" out. So, all those people who practice the stance for hours without "rushing it out" are not developing their power as efficiently.

It was only over the past 7-8yrs that I could understand what he meant. Luckily, I did not just dismiss it and forgot it.

Cheers,
John

[cam]

Hi John
Yes, when you talk about spending lots of money and more importantly time on the "secrets", only to later find out it was rubbish, it tends to make one sceptical. At least that's how I feel about it, it actually takes you further from your goal, as I had to spend time unlearning the nonsense that was drilled into me. Luckily for me I have had the opportunity to get on the right track, with the help of a high level Taijiquan sifu.

[Three Harmonies]

Secrets= one of two things.....
1- Teacher will milk you out of mucho $$, and most likely teach sh!t.

2- Teacher does not know something, is too proud too admit it, and too lame to find out and help their student.

The secret is training hard. Period. If you are told something else (I do not care how high level your teacher is) run like the wind, because you will waste your money, but worse yet time! I can earn money back. When time is lost....it is lost forever!
I agree with the addage (as does my teacher Tim Cartmell) with a max. of 20 min. Whether that is standing in San (10 minutes each leg) Ti, or Yi Chuan.
I am not sure what to think about some of these people who stand for hours a day, practice no striking drills or other similar drills, and then say they can fight better than anyone! I do not dispute their claims of power, but how do you become a better fighter without hitting something/one???? By just standing????

I also agree that one should not "just stand there doing nothing." Tim explains it like this.... imagine a crazy nut job, standing just out of reach with a giant axe waiting to cut off your head. As soon as he moves you attack! That is the type of Yi (intent) one should have when standing. Otherwise you are just....standing.

My two cents...
Cheers
Jake