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Thread: Zhang Zhuan and martial arts...

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
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    Wu Wei USA
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    25
    I have read several books (like Sun Lu Tang's Study of Form Mind-Boxing/Jerry Alan Johnson's Essence of Internal Martial Arts/B.K. Frantzis' Power of Internal Martial Arts) that all elude to standing practice being up to an hour (San Ti Shi posture).

    I got the impression that meant total, so I started to gradually build up my time to 20min/side in a San Ti posture (with a slight difference in the placement of the posterior arm/palm). My entire stance keeping takes an 1hr and 15 min with stretching before and centering after. I feel that this amount of time is beneficial and have not experienced any negative effects.

    On Tim's Discussion board (www.shenwu.com) you can do a search for "Standing Practice" and find a discussion on this topic where Tim writes:
    "Since walking the circle while holding postures is referred to as "Xing Zhuang" (moving post) and stance keeping is "Zhan Zhuang" (standing post) it's apparent that the Chinese view the two practices as of the same training methodology. Personally, I think there is benefit to practicing both methods. In most schools of Ba Gua Zhang, although emphasis is placed on the Xing Zhuang, there is also at least one or two stationary postures that are practiced. In the Gao style, practitioners often stand in the "Guard" posture, "Xian Tian Zhuang" or Pre-Heaven Posture (the basic circle walking position) as well as a variation of the San Ti Posture of Xing Yi Quan, called "Hou Tian Zhang" or the Post-Heaven Posture. I think that spending some time on stationary postures is very beneficial no matter which style is practiced.

    Xing Zhuang cultivates the ability to hold the upper body in a unit (correct alignment) and to focus the intent through a particular posture while in constant motion around an opponent.
    Zhan Zhuang cultivates the same type of power while emphasizing stability. So basically the two variations of post training emphasize stability and focus of power and intent while staionary and while in motion."
    Also:
    "As beneficial as stance keeping is, there is a limit. My Yi Quan teacher said that 40 minutes of standing was very good, an hour was the maximum for beneficial returns, and that if you had time to stand longer than that, you need to go out and get a job."

    He also clarifies that is should be 40Min. total.

    Has anyone tried different sets of standing? If so, have you felt a benefit from it? I am curious because I have recently started to do some Yi Chuan (25 min) in the afternoon and meditation (15 min) at night in addition to San Ti (1:15) in the morning. Just curious...

    Happy training!

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    The OC, CA
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    8
    Anjentao,

    Are you studying Yi Chuan with Tim? This is where I received my standing/Yi Chuan training. We did 8 different positions for 5 min each standing. Then other moving exercises called "testing power" [shir li?] and mud stepping [mocu bu?]. Tim has some videos of his teacher, Gao, demonstrating some things informally. Pretty cool stuff.

  3. #63
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    Mar 2004
    Location
    Wu Wei USA
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    Surf Taut,

    No, but I wish I was studying Yi Chuan with Tim!

    Actually I have very little Yi Chuan training so far. I have gotten that information in bits and peices and combined it with the details/principles I have gotten for standing practice.

    There's a Jerry Alan Johnson book (listed above) that also details eight main postures with a ready posture at the beginning and end. I imagine it's very similar to what you practice.

    I'm sure over time I will learn more of the Yi Chuan.

    Practice. Patience. Persistance!

    Happy training!
    Last edited by Anjentao; 02-19-2005 at 12:07 PM.

  4. #64
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    Jan 1970
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    Plymouth, MA
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    How do you know about Gao style?

  5. #65
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    Feb 2005
    Location
    The OC, CA
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    How do you know about Gao style?
    Buddy, I'm assuming that is directed at my reference to Gao above. Tim Cartmell's YiChuan teacher is named Gao Liu De. Tim taught a class in YiChuan for a brief period of time. Not to be confused with Gao Yi Sheng style BaGua which I learned from him also.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Wu Wei USA
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    I have been reading a lot about Yi Chuan/Dadengchaun on various web sites. I have also seen quite a few books available on the subject. Does anyone have any suggestions as far as well written books go?

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Seattle, WA.
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    1,754
    Tim Cartmells Xing Yi Nei Gong book is the best reference on standing. I have all of the ones in English, and Tim makes it very simple and has a down to earth style (just like his teachings).
    Cheers
    Jake
    "Gravity doesn't lie, and the ground never misses."
    Jake Burroughs
    Three Harmonies Chinese Martial Arts Center
    Seattle, WA.
    www.threeharmonies.com
    three_harmonies@hotmail.com
    www.threeharmonies.blogspot.com

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Westland, Mi, USA
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    268

    Some YiQuan resources

    Websites

    www.yiquan.com
    www.yiquan.com.pl
    http://www.tapmax.com/yq/index.html
    www.i-chuan.net Best articles on practice on the internet

    Forums

    http://www.yiquan.com.pl/support/
    http://www.tapmax.com/yq/forum/index.php
    www.tomabey.com
    http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/Dachengdao/

    My own contribution:

    http://www.jadedragon.com/archives/m.../yiquan01.html

    I've been standing regularly for a little over 4 years now. I find that when I train regularly, my mental state is equal to whatever challeges arise. I've also found that my reaction time is better. I can't really say that I'm faster, or there is a sensation that everything has slowed down, but I just seem to have more time.

    What has worked well for me is to work on one posture for a week or so. Standing anywere from 30 minutes (or whatever I can get in, if I'm busy or travelling), to over 70 minutes (at which point my feet tend to fall asleep and I fall down). One combat posture, and one shi li exercise. The next week go on to something else.

    The first goal in standing is to relax. After becoming relaxed, it's important to work with visualizations. Visualization may not be the best word. I know of people who try to "see" the balloon, tree, springs, or whatever. It is more like "feel as though you are holding a balloon." The difference is subtle, but important.

    Best Regards,

    Rick

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    san francisco
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    283
    EXACTLY! i agree 100%.
    Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po
    You then walk backwards, forcing him off his feet and then drag him by the eye socket and lips. You can pull so hard that the lips tear away. You will never hear such screaming.

  10. #70
    Just a point of clarification, Zhanzhuang practice alone does not equate to Yiquan practice. Alot of people are familiar with Han XingYuen's 8 postures, but they represent a small percentage of the yiquan postures out there, and in that an even smaller percentage of the total Yiquan practice. They're great postures, don't get me wrong, and a very important practice that I would urge any martial artist to investigate, but by themselves, they aren't Yiquan.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Westland, Mi, USA
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    268
    To further expand on Elliot's post - Zhan Zhuang + <insert martial art> isn't YiQuan either. YiQuan consists of a complete body of exercises, one of which is ZZ.

  12. #72
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    Jul 2004
    Location
    Calgary AB
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    To be honest when practicing Yiquan I'm not actually looking for a "style." I realize that there may be dozens of standing postures that are practiced within the community of Yiquan but I do not believe they are all necessary to practice Yiquan. I always felt it was about concepts.

  13. #73
    Its quite true that the specific postures don't necessarily constitute Yiquan practice; what does are the seven parts; zhanzhuang, shi li, fa li, mocabu, shi sheng, tuishou and sanshou. What does is things like various mojin and structure testing. I practice Beng Chuan, is that now my XingYi practice? I sometimes practice Chicken Steps, am I practicing Ziranmen? No, I'm practicing a part of Ziranmen. I'm practicing a piece of Xingyi (a piece by way of Taikiken, so there is some symmetry there). I'm not saying don't stand, very much the opposite, stand, please; and I'm definately not saying don't cross-pollinate your practice, just be aware that its a tiny piece that you're practicing.

    This kinda brings me more to the real point of mentioning this: just standing isn't Yiquan. Why? well there is a Wang XiangZhai quote I like that makes it fairly clear. "In Yiquan, zhanzhuang is most basic, but shi li is most important". You really can't do Yiquan zhanzhuang without doing shi li. You will lack the basic internal understanding of developing hunyuanli and mojin feelings through zhanzhuang practice without it. Its critical.

  14. #74
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    Jul 2004
    Location
    Calgary AB
    Posts
    51
    Honestly depending on what complete means to someone I can safely say that I do not practice any style completly. In my Yiquan practice I only practice a few postures but the important concepts of expressing outward in a minumum of six directions and using "opposite force" in every posture and stretching the frame as well as other concepts are what is important for me ( this is also not including all the mental imagery that is utilized.) My teacher doesnt use a whole lot of Chinese terminology so I am not familiar with the term shi Li.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Palmer
    Honestly depending on what complete means to someone I can safely say that I do not practice any style completly. In my Yiquan practice I only practice a few postures but the important concepts of expressing outward in a minumum of six directions and using "opposite force" in every posture and stretching the frame as well as other concepts are what is important for me ( this is also not including all the mental imagery that is utilized.)
    I've said my piece. Whatever works for you.

    My teacher doesnt use a whole lot of Chinese terminology so I am not familiar with the term shi Li.
    Shi li = seeking force/strength. The moving part of Yiquan. Starts with arm movements that lead to full body movements and are later combined with mocabu to eventually form part of jianwu. Its where you find the opposing forces and directional forces that lead to hunyuanli, or 'six-directional force' (I still think 'omni-directional force' migh be a better translation though).

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