War in Iraq has killed over 100.000 Iraqis

[Radhnoti]

Just for accuracy, Saddam killed an estimated 1.3 million of his own citizens during his 30 year reign of terror. That would be 43,333 people each and every year.
Add to this the fact that he ruled with terror and torture, and you'll understand why I roll my eyes when U.S. administration opponents cite the current Iraq casualties.

Here's a speech given to call attention to Saddam's evil by the U.S. Ambassador-at-Large for War Crimes Issues. Note the date places the speaker within the time span of the administration of President Clinton.
http://www.fas.org/news/iraq/2000/09/iraq-000918.htm

[Spark]

Originally posted by El Tejon
Kristoffer, what's so funny about the USSR's use of terror and murder? Why laugh at the death and suffering of hundreds of millions?

Because when you point a finger, three point back.

[Kristoffer]

If we're really gonna stur up things, maybe we should make clear who put Saddam in power in the first place? Or is that irrelevent?

[Radhnoti]

So...then it's your position that the U.S. had a responsibility to remove him from power to make amends for past mistakes?

[CaptinPickAxe]

Aye.
But if we would of kept our meddeling noses out of their business, we would of never had to outst the tyrant we put in there. The same thing with Osama Bin Laden.

So we're playing janitors not to the woes of the world, but to mistakes we made by trying to destroy nations without sending a single soul in.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Thats a beautiful America.

Manipulative.

[Kristoffer]

"So...then it's your position that the U.S. had a responsibility to remove him from power to make amends for past mistakes?"

You should run for president
-yes. but but did u hafta make such a mess

[chen zhen]

Originally posted by Radhnoti
So...then it's your position that the U.S. had a responsibility to remove him from power to make amends for past mistakes?

sure.. but that wasnt the "point" of the war, was it?

[El Tejon]

That was exactly the point of the war. Kindly Uncle Saddam was on probation. As dictated by the 1991 ceasefire, Saddam refused to comply with the terms of his probation by accounting for his weaponry, the US then resumed its offensive and removed him from power.

Attempting to remove Saddam for his continued violations of his agreement has been US policy for some time. Bill Clinton tried to remove him from power by attempting to kill him over kindly Uncle Saddam's assassination plot against George Herbert Walker Bush was discovered.

Kristoffer, make such a mess? Hmmm, well Europe after Hitler was a mess. Just look at it now!

That said Iraq may be much further down the road with European help, but France and Germany are steamed that we cut off their money from the oil-for-food kickbacks (finally that sordid scandal is coming to light as the reason for the footdragging on Iraq; it's all about the francs, or the geld). We strangled their Golden Goose of corruption and, Iraqis be ****ed, they are striking back.

[Kristoffer]

uh, yeah Europe is fine. But you can't compare pre-Iraq from before you invaded them with Europe before WW2. There was and is an infrastructure, resources etc. What does Iraq have? Oil? Is there any left?

havn't heard anything about the scandal you write about. So you're blaming the catastophic outcome in Iraq on german troops? Is that what you're saying?

You put Saddam in place (bad). You wage war and fail (bad). You wage war again, gets rid of Saddam (good). But now the entire Middle East is a monkey house. And what should we do to solve this problem? I'm more interested in discission solutions to a stable middle east.

[El Tejon]

Kristoffer, Europe after WWII was a wreck--displaced persons, nonexistant economies, terrorists committing terrorism, the Soviets enslaving half of Europe, etc, inter alia, ad naseum. Europe came back, so will Iraq. Iraq has many resources including the greatest resource of any nations--its people.

The Oil-for-Food scandal is a huge disaster for the United Nations (European countries were taking kickbacks from Saddam and arming him in violation of international law). Remember it was this slush fund that European politicians were taking bribes from to oppose the War of Continuation in Iraq, including British MPs. The UN is now scrambling to bury the fact that they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar by issuing this latest silly "reform" proposal(s).

I cannot believe the Swedish media is not running stories about this disgrace.

Saddam put himself in place by killing off potential rivals. The UN kept him there after the First Iraq war (the U.S. unfortunately agreed as the UN mandate was only to liberate Kuwait), but put him on probation. He violated the terms of his probation. The U.S. executed the suspended portion of his sentence during the War of Continuation.

To solve the problem, Iraq, like Germany and Japan, will be liberated and will serve as a model and island of civility for the Middle East. It will also serve as an excellent platform for SEAL and Special Forces teams to hunt and kill those that wish to harm the West in Saudia Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, inter alia--"blockbusting" as the British call it in their urban warfare jargon.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by El Tejon
To solve the problem, Iraq, like Germany and Japan, will be liberated and will serve as a model and island of civility for the Middle East. It will also serve as an excellent platform for SEAL and Special Forces teams to hunt and kill those that wish to harm the West in Saudia Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, inter alia--"blockbusting" as the British call it in their urban warfare jargon.

Fantasy at best.

Yet more tyranny-creating/supporting meddling at worst.

Japan and Germany are kind of, how shall I put this... very different to each other and to Iraq. The terms of their peace and responsibilities and how these were achieved were also completely different. You are comparing at best incomplete history (no history is complete, both due to differences of opinion on hostorical subjects, and to the fact that time hasn't stopped. We'll see just how effective the taming of Japan was if your idiot govt convinces it's idiot govt to alter Article 9 of its constitution and rearm creating a far more volatile Cold War - or maybe a very hot one - in the East) with incomplete history in the making. Apples and oranges.

Kris
You put Saddam in place (bad). You wage war and fail (bad). You wage war again, gets rid of Saddam (good).

You forgot the part about continuing to authorize the sale and the selling of biological and chemical weapons to him right up to six months (tops) before the Gulf War (bad).

[Kristoffer]

Mat- Yeah that was kinda what I meant when I said the US put him power. Meaning he wouldn't have been so 'succesfull' being it not for the support from US.

And You also point out stuff about WW2 Europe I'm too lazy to write about. (and not really that interested in dwelling on. It's not relvent to what we're talking about).

El Tejon - The Oil for Food scandal has probebly been in the news but I havn't followed this as precise as before. I'm just tired of hearing of this over and over. But I wouldn't be surprised if it's true. Men with power are bound to abuse it some time, no matter where they're from.

Also I asked you what you think is the solution to a stable middle east (and stable Iraq). You said Iraq qill be liberated and then serve as a model of civility. And that it will become a base for US troops.

Okay. Well seeing that Iraq IS free from it's dictator now, would you call Iraq libirated? It seems alot of Iraqis hate you guys (and us) more than they hated Saddam. It seems that US troops isn't really well liked over there at all in fact. And you expect these people to stop fighting and settle down anytime soon? You're still in a war.
You're right that having special forces based in Iraq would be strategically wise, it's right in the middle of it. But I don't see how having more of you're 'not so liked' people based over there would make Iraq a better place.

[Spark]

Originally posted by El Tejon
Europe came back, so will Iraq. Iraq has many resources including the greatest resource of any nations--its people.

That general statement shows your complete lack of understanding of the history of the middle east and multiple layers of complexity in this region of the world.

[Radhnoti]

Kristopher - "...It seems alot of Iraqis hate you guys (and us) more than they hated Saddam..."

I'd venture to guess that the 1.3 million Saddam killed aren't his biggest fans. I'd also guess that their family (if any were left alive) support the U.S. more than Saddam.
I know people in Iraq, they indicate that a large portion of the population appreciate the U.S.-led forces over there. Of course, that doesn't make a good story for the nightly news...

The Oil for Food scandal is a big deal. It shows that the U.N. and the countries protesting the U.S. led invasion had financial reasons to be doing so. You folks who protest for reasons of real principal should be furious with them, I think.