Aikido and Internal MA connected?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Doug
Actually, sir, it is not my responsibility to contact people for you to supposedly challenge.

I believe it was you who originally brought up the subject of "challenging" a tai chi guy (and have done it a second time in this thread). Because of this, you seemed like the logical person to contact for this. Of course you wanted nothing to do with crossing hands with me, but, instead, referred me to some tai chi people clear across the country.

I did find it interesting that you invited someone from Oregon to talk to you "in person", but weren't interested in meeting up with someone from your own backyard.

Originally posted by Doug
You can only come to this conclusion if you are a newbie. Given your attitude, you have identified yourself and your "b.s." quite clearly.

OK, since you are the expert, maybe you can explain to everyone how you have reached the conclusion that tai chi is more alive and effective than is aikido.

[Doug]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
I believe it was you who originally brought up the subject of "challenging" a tai chi guy (and have done it a second time in this thread).

The notion of "challenging" was already in your mind and was not inspired by me. Do not blame me on your need to experience violence.

In fact, you are an idiot. You are posting messages on a forum filled with internal martial artists. If you are so bent on finding someone to fight, why not issue your challenge here? Go ahead: challenge this discussion board. But, no, you find it easier to blame me for your incompetence.

Because of this, you seemed like the logical person to contact for this.

Because you cannot conduct a search on your own? If you feel so responsible for "a tradition of challenging other martial arts," why can't you do it on your own? You think you can blame me for not finging a Tai Chi fighter? Get a real argument the next time you post.

Of course you wanted nothing to do with crossing hands with me, but, instead, referred me to some tai chi people clear across the country.

Get your facts right. You wanted to challenge a Tai Chi fighter, and your address to me was made under the assumption that I would be a representative of Tai Chi fighting abilities. Because you were looking for that kind of person, I turned you down. But what makes you think I would ever be afraid of you? You challenged and continue to challenge Tai Chi's fighting ability, not me in particular. Before you jump to conclusions about "crossing hands," think before you type.

I did find it interesting that you invited someone from Oregon to talk to you "in person", but weren't interested in meeting up with someone from your own backyard.

Refer to the above statement, friend. I do not know you nor care to waste my time on your need to prove absolutely nothing to yourself. Do not even try to coax me into a confrontation. If you want to fight, punch yourself in your gut.

OK, since you are the expert, maybe you can explain to everyone how you have reached the conclusion that tai chi is more alive and effective than is aikido.

Apparently, you have not been reading the posts in this thread. So you cannot read as well as conduct your own investigations. You have created a very nice picture of yourself.

And do not waste this thread's space with your personal, stupid problems.

Doug M

[Samurai Jack]

Very nice posts, Jess. Here's my two cents:

Originally posted by Rockwood
Daito Ryu does seem to be an important part of the equation. Also Mr. Amdur's articles point out that Aikido doesn't have any of the circle walking of Ba Gua or intricate internal mechanics of Xing Yi.

The supposedly "missing" circle walking component is actually glaringly obvious to anyone who actually does Pa Kua. The toes of the Aikidoka are always turned either in or out in Ko Bu or Bai Bu, even when steping on a linear line. I studied Gao style Pa Kua right along with Hsing-i, and while I've also been exposed to Cheng's style, I've got to say that Gao's line drills are still circular in application. In other words, depending on the relationship to the opponent, the practitioner can change direction almost instantly just by keeping the hips open and turning the foot to face the direction you want to go. Aikido's stepping patterns are identical to Gao's style except for one crucial and extremly important difference. In Aikido the steps are forward weighted, while in Ba Gua the steps are back weighted.

Originally posted by Rockwood
Ba Gua contains many many techniques that are totally identical to Aikido. That could be coincidence, except for the fact that both depend on the Ko Bu Bai Bu/Tai No Hen Ko stepping pattern to be effective.

I no longer think it's coincidence. The movements of Pa Kua are so unique they aren't even seen in it's sister arts. Also there are many movements not present in the origional Daito Ryu, movements that would be entirely impractical for a sword weilding Samurai to use in combat. For example, Kokyu-ho is the very same movement as Phoenix spreads wings:

http://www.northbayaikido.org/images/ostatue.gif

http://www.lip.pt/~carvalho/osensei5.jpg

http://www.lijing.org/Bagua_Zhang/a_Bagua_B.gif

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...lr%3D%26sa%3DN

These are the only photos I could find demonstrating the Pa Kua technique I'm talking about. I'd like to point out that the first one is not a very good photo since her elbows are too far out to the side which disconnects her arms from her torso. John Painter does a much better job of it in my opinion, maybe the lady is a wushu competitor? The O-Sensei statue shows better technique than the lady, yet supposedly he never did Pa Kua! Compare his form to Painter's and look at the application.

Originally posted by Rockwood
To me the essence of Ba Gua is in it's use of the simple Ko Bu Bai Bu and whole body power to create an endless multitude of spontaneuos technique. In theory, one wouldn't need Circle Walking or even Palm Changes in order to "do" Ba Gua. It is a conceptual martial art, and the forms are fluff on the surface of a very profound way of moving.

Agreed. I don't know why there is so much resistance to the idea that Aikido is related to IMA. It seems like anyone who's taken enough time to practice these arts would be able to see the extraordinary similarities. Funny thing is, when I had to relocate and find a new teacher, I checked out the two local schools that teach Hsing-i and had to discard them right off because thier bodymechanics were not correct. The Aikido dojo I train at now was the only place where I saw people actually using the full body power that IMA are noted for.

Originally posted by Rockwood
Ueshiba had a very similar way of moving, and his Aikido is characterized by the big committed forward stepping attacks that are identical to Xing Yi's, the in/out sweeping, circular steps of Ba Gua and the full, alive, ki-filled, extended body posture that is common to both Xing Yi and Ba Gua.

Really this is the whole point for me. It dosen't matter what art you are studying. IMO it's most important that you learn the proper way to move for maximum efficency, power generation, and health benifit. Aikido can do this just as well as an IMA, as long as the teacher knows what s/he's doing. Great posts!

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Doug
The notion of "challenging" was already in your mind and was not inspired by me. Do not blame me on your need to experience violence.

Are you a mind reader now?
Speaking of idiots, you might want to go back and re-read the post where you mentioned challenging tai chi fighters. If you do that, you will notice that you brought up the notion of challenging the tai chi fighter before it was ever mentioned by me.

Since you are obviously not a qualified representative of tai chi fighting ability, maybe you should just shut the **** up in the future about challenging tai chi fighters.

[ketchup]

I studied aikido for a couple of months in Los Angeles and really enjoyed it. However, after reading the book Angry White Pyjamas (a non fiction account of the Yoshinkan's 1 year riot police training in Japan), I had some major red flags raised for myself about the art. Specifically, there is one part in the book where a bunch of the senior instructors of the Yoshinkan get into a bar fight. Afterwards, when asked if they had used their aikido, they replied to the effect that they had just brawled. This raised serious questions for me as to aikido's practicality. Opinions?

[Samurai Jack]

It's practical. I've used it many, many times as a volunteer police officer and mental health worker. The restraint techniques (ikkyo,nikkyo,sankyo,katagatame,etc.) are very effective for controlling violent mentally ill patients and uncooperative suspects. There's a reason that so many cops study aikido.

[BAI HE]

Getting back to the original thoughts...

I believe Ueshiba certainly saw something in China. Maybe his methods were "Codified" before these trips, but was his shintai?

Having studied AJJ, I can clearly see that there is no "Shen Fa " or body method to develop power as in IMA's.

I do believe Ueshiba saw something and trained it. It matters little if he spoke Chinese.... Considering the trade history between the two, often at odds, countries, one might consider that many chinese merchants spoke Japanese or could serve as interperters.

Ueshiba's love was of the martial arts, it would hardly be surprising that it would be one of his primary interests when travelling in China.

Considering the transmission of chuan fa to Okinawa, resulting in
the birth of Nara-Te empty handed methods, one can clearly see why Aikido is under the microscope.

I personally believe Ueshiba saw something. Maybe not enough, but enough to see a big lightbulb go off and embrace a new way of training.
Do I have proof? No.
Is this what I think? Yes.

[Doug]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
maybe you should just shut the **** up in the future about challenging tai chi fighters.

Keep on talking.

Doug M

[BAI HE]

TO ADRESS SOME OF MR. AMDUR'S STATEMENTS...

Actually, I've never heard any claim that Ueshiba studied xingyi. This one is an easy call - no way. Or if he studied it, he didn't learn anything of it - because the way one exerts force is dramatically different. As for bagua - Kumar Frantzis is one of the main sources of this claim.

KUMAR NEVER ACTUALLY "TOUCHED HANDS" WITH UESHIBA. IT JUST DIDN'T HAPPEN.

But let's take a closer look. In Ueshiba's first trip to China, he was on the move as part of a small group of Oomotokyo conspirators, trying to start a religious revolution in China. He was on horseback, he was hiding in huts, ending up in shackles, and he was only there a few months.

NO ONE EVER SAID HE HAD TO GO TO THE ART. THE ART MAY HAVE COME TO HIM. ****, WE JUST FOUND OUT ABOUT A BAGUA MAN FROM AN OBSCURE LINEAGE IN EDMONTON....

YAO LI HAS LIVED ACROSS THE STREET FROM MY GRANDMOTHER FOR MORE THAN A DECADE, I NEVER KNEW THE GUY KNEW ANY GUNG-FU.

A view of the 1936 film of Ueshiba shows that he'd already consolidated his techniques - aikido - and this was before his subsequent trips there.

SEE ABOVE. THINK ABOUT THE HISTORY OF NARA-TE AND TRADE BETWEEN CHINA AND JAPAN.

In Ueshiba's subsequent trips to China - and there were several - he was always a dignitary. Ueshiba always travelled with a posse - he had a group of students who attended to him. There are no accounts by these men of him sneaking out on a regular (or even irregular basis), which is what he would have had to do. Bagua was utterly unknown in Japan. If he had learned to walk the circle and do the palm changes, no Japanese person would have had a clue what he was doing, if he had continued the practice - he could have called it his tengu dance and no one would have been the wiser. But there are no accounts of his walking the circle, and his techniques, compared to even the more simple palm changes, are far less "detailed." Ueshiba never displayed the characteristic Kou/bu steps used in turning, nor ever walked with "mud treading steps" (common in many bagua systems).

THERE IS WHAT A TEACHER TEACHES AND WHAT A TEACHER TRAINS PERSONALLY. WHY HAS NO ONE REACHED UESHIBA'S SKILL LEVEL THEN. IF I USE THE SAME LEGO'S AND DIAGRAM TO BUILD, SAY A ROCKET? WHY WON'T IT FLY.
THIS IS IRREGULAR. I CAN'T ATTEST TO UESHIBA'S SKILL LEVEL, BUT I'VE HEARD THAT NONE WITHIN THE AIKIDO CAMP EVER CAME CLOSE. IS THIS DIEFICATION OR FACT?

A Japanese man named Takeda, who was a lineal successor of one line of tombeichu'an, mentioned that Ueshiba, as part of a group of Japanese martial arts personages, visited him in 1936 in Beijing. But this was one evening - Ueshiba was with his posse - and Takeda made no mention of any techinical exchanges.

Yes, there are techniques similar to ikkyo, nikkyo, irimi-nage, kokyu-nage in bagua - but this is truly superficial - one can find similar techniques in early fencing texts from Holland as well. But aikido doesn't "coil" the muscles/tendons like bagua, views combat from a very different frame of reference ("grab my wrist"), has no kicks, leg traps, and the atemi is very very different from the strikes one finds with bagua.

NO ARGUMENT THERE. WITHOUT THE BODY METHOD AND THE PROPER SHEN FA TRAINING THE BODY AND FASCIA WON'T TWIST AND COIL AS IS PARAMOUNT TO IMA. THE MECHANICS AND ANGLING ARE BEING OVERLOOKED THO'...

Frantzis did not, to my knowledge, ever view much Daito-ryu - (maybe he did, but DR wasn't OUT much in the sixties when he spent most of his time in Japan) - and therefore did not see that DR technique, the roots of aikido, has the same methods.

I'VE STUDIED AJJ (TAKESHIN) AND KNOW A FEW BOYS AIKIDO PLAYERS. I SEE SOME SERIOUS DIFFERENCES IN APPLICATION, TRAINING AND INTENT. IMO AJJ IS SMALLER, TIGHTER AND MORE AGGRESSIVE THAN AIKIDO (GOES WITHOUT SAYING) AND ALSO FEATURES MORE ATEMI AND LEGWORK.

Aha! So DR must be derived from bagua. Nah. No records of Takeda Sokaku EVER being outside of Japan. And DR is even further away in technique.

NO ONE EVER CLAIMED THAT. DR (IN MY UNDERSTANDING) IS CLOSER TO BAGUA THAN AIKIDO. AGAIN, WHO KNOWS WHAT TAKEDA SAW AND DID, OR WHO HE MET OR KNEW?


In sum, the resemblences are very superficial, the record of Ueshiba's travels may show that he had time to have seen Bagua in Beijin, after he'd already made aikido what it is today, and finally, his son stated, when asked, that his father never talked about Chinese martial arts, nor did he ever do any practice which resembled it, while in the privacy of his home.

THe odds of him doing bagua are perhaps a little higher than his doing flamenco.

AGAIN, SO LITTLE IS REALLY KNOWN ABOUT UESHIBA'S PERSONAL PRACTICE, IT IS A STRETCH TO ASSUME ANYTHING ABOUT IT.
HE MAY HAVE STUMBLED ON THE IDEAS HIMSELF OR SAW THE RAY OF LIGHT?
WHO KNOWS.
I THINK HE WAS PRIVY TO SOMETHING AND TOOK IT TO HIS GRAVE.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Doug
An issue of The Journal of Asian Martial Arts, which has an article on DonDraeger, has Draeger claim that any Japanese looking to learn about chi should study a Chinese system.

So, you are basing your assumptions on the effectiveness of aikido based on one year of training and some magazine articles?

Originally posted by Doug
Other differences exist, but Aikido by itself is only as effective as the current practitioners are today.

And how many current practioners have you met and crossed hand with?

[BAI HE]

We're back on topic. Maybe you should grind
your axe with Doug on a seperate thread.

BTW - Did you go to the Nov. Gathering of the pack?

Best,
Pete

[Samurai Jack]

I know I may be dragging us off topic again, but seeing as Bai He and Knife are into the dogbrothers thing, do either of you happen to know Lester Griffin? I'm wondering how his school in Hemet is doing. Actually, how he is doing too.

[BAI HE]

Don't know him.
I don't don't do the Dog Bros. thing,
but I would if zi was on the Left coast.

One of my KF brothers weapons teachers
competed. I was wondering how he made out.

I like weapons, I just have always gravitated toward empty handed work. That's just me. As far as weapons go? I like rocks

[Doug]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
So, you are basing your assumptions on the effectiveness of aikido based on one year of training and some magazine articles?

Ha, ha, ha! What a poor attempt at making me look bad.

You make a hasty generalization about my experience when I have not revealed how much I actually have, you dolt. Apparently, you like digging holes you cannot get out of.

And how many current practioners have you met and crossed hand with?

Many. And, surprisingly, I have never felt the need to try to disprove any of them. Maybe you could take a hint and humble yourself somehow.

Stop wasting this board's space.

Doug M