Aikido and Internal MA connected?

[Finny]

Kaitain said pretty much what I was trying to say.

The notion of Aikido as a 'dead' art is not as insulting as it may sound, Jack.

I personally think Aikido's a great art, with a founder who provided a great ideal to aim for.

The only point I was trying to make is that I've also heard from many VERY experienced budoka that they believed that Ueshiba's Aikido died with him, because none of his students were able to replicate the things he could do. I think the phrase I've heard most often is that none could "steal his techniques" - due to his method of teaching; that is, he would just demonstrate and then expect his students to copy, but none of them could - at least not to the same degree of skill.

If you disagree, and think that his students WERE able to continue his art, perhaps you could tell us which ones were able to replicate his level of skill - and who can do so these days.

No-ones trying to chase you out, just looking for some healthy disscussion. You don't seem to be up for that - that's ok, just dont blame us.

[Walter Joyce]

While he as also studied the three big neija arts, there is one person I have seen film of that reminded me of Usheiba, Peter Ralston. He has developed his own art, Cheng Hsin, but I have seen film clips of him and the only other person I saw that worked as effortlessly and effectively was Usheiba.

Ralston was also a student of aikido.

FWIW

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
Does this sound like anything you've experienced in your practice?

Somewhat, yes. But I have not practiced enough aikido to look at it from that perspective.

I brought up the distinction between movement coordinated around the dantien and movement of the dantien because it's a distinction that's easy to miss in language; there are some specific exercises to cultivate the latter in the chinese internals, analogs of which I haven't seen in aikido; and aikidoka tend to look to me, by chinese internal standards, as having 'stiff' (or immobile) waists (which leads to a stiffness of shoulder and elbow... or vice-versa, I guess).

Given my inexperience, I wouldn't be presumptuous enough to suggest that aikido is in any sense inferior in this regard, but merely perhaps different than the chinese internals -- but I think that was the topic to begin with.

It's quite possible, of course, that I'm entirely wrong in this regard. And that would be nice. Or perhaps it wouldn't -- I think, as has been suggested, aikido may be better appreciated for its own unique contributions than for its analogs to the chinese internals.

... as for the claim that some have made here, that none since Ueshiba have achieved his type of skill in/by aikido, I think that is demonstratably false -- certainly, the likes of Tomiki and Shioda seem to be representative in this regard. It's probably true that aikido has not been as successful as many martial arts in producing practitioners that match the skill of its masters, but this seems to be true of the chinese internals as well -- so perhaps it's not a particularly meaningful observation in this specific discussion.

[Doug]

Perhaps, perhaps not.

[Samurai Jack]

Well, I've had some time to cool off. It's very nice to see such constructive questions and comments being discussed. I particularly enjoy Christopher's observation:

I think, as has been suggested, aikido may be better appreciated for its own unique contributions than for its analogs to the chinese internals.

I also think that Christopher and Walter have done a wonderful job of answering Finny's question:

If you disagree, and think that his students WERE able to continue his art, perhaps you could tell us which ones were able to replicate his level of skill - and who can do so these days.

They mentioned Peter Ralston, Tomiki and Shioda. To that short list I would like to add Saito Sensei, Chiba Sensei, and Yamada Sensei, as well as my own teacher, whose name must remain anonymous in order to protect the innocent from my imperfect and sometimes controversial attempts at communication. It is difficult enough to represent myself!

I would venture the opinion that the above mentioned teachers are expressing Aikido in their own unique ways, but at the same time showing the degree of skill necessary for their purposes. To me, the question as to whether or not they are just like O-Sensei is meaningless, and irrelevant, especially from his own enlightened perspective. In that regard, any similarities or lack thereof to any other art is also meaningless.

Someone once said something about the root of the martial arts being more important than the flowers and branches. In actuality, I think they are neither more nor less important, but at once interdependant and unique.

By way of closing, I'd like to relate the following story:

A student once approached Morihei Ueshiba and said, "O-Sensei, I should very much like to practice your Aikido, will you teach me?" Ueshiba replied, "How unique! Everyone else is practicing their own Aikido. I am at a loss as to how you will practice mine."

[Internal Boxer]

The test of any martial art is for it to be applied on fully resisting opponents. When I talk about "opponents" I do not mean their own students!

There is a place for co-operative training methods in martial arts but Training against a fully resistent opponent should be one of the core training principles. If this is absent from the training regime skill cannot be aquired.

end of.

[Walter Joyce]

in 1978 Peter Ralston won one of the first modern full contact championships in China.

I'm fairly certain he didn't defeat any of his students to achieve that honor.

[Samurai Jack]

It took me a minute to realize that Internal Boxer was calling into question the master's skill level whom I mentioned. I'm guessing his point is that if these guys didn't fight for real, they aren't the real deal.

Allow me to put that notion to rest. To start with Takeda Sensei, who was Ueshiba Sensei's teacher, was a notorious gang member who had murdered numerous people with little more than his paper fan as a weapon. He was hunted by various law enforcers and rival gangs and had many, many opportunities to use his art. Strangely, because of his reputation as a fighter, many district police were also his students...

Ueshiba O-Sensei held many challenge matches in which he publicly fought Sumo wrestlers, judo and jujutsuka, an american greco-roman wrestler, and even once fought a skilled ARMED (!) kenjutsuka. He never lost a match.

Chiba Sensei was a rough and tumble young man and retains his reputation for martial austerity to this day. He too accepted challengers from various arts, and even had a very controversial match with Wang Shu Jin, the famous internal stylist. No matter which side of the argument as to who won you go along with, both sides admit that Wang's wrist was broken, and Chiba was unhurt. (I can't figure out how Wang's camp can claim that Wang won with this outcome, but they do)

Tomiki, Shioda, and Yamada have all fought at various times in thier lives. So have I. There is no doubt in my mind that Aikido is an effective martial art.

[Doug]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
To start with Takeda Sensei, who was Ueshiba Sensei's teacher, was a notorious gang member who had murdered numerous people with little more than his paper fan as a weapon.

Proof, have you?

Ueshiba O-Sensei held many challenge matches [...]. He never lost a match.

According to lore, yes. According to lore, he could also "see the bullets" before they hit during his time in war. He was supposedly 180 pounds of muscle and could rip a tree out of the ground.

Chiba Sensei was a rough and tumble young man and retains his reputation for martial austerity to this day. He too accepted challengers from various arts, and even had a very controversial match with Wang Shu Jin, the famous internal stylist. No matter which side of the argument as to who won you go along with, both sides admit that Wang's wrist was broken, and Chiba was unhurt. (I can't figure out how Wang's camp can claim that Wang won with this outcome, but they do)

Cite this source, please. I am interested in how you arrive at your conclusion, given your expertise in analysis on this discussion board.

There is no doubt in my mind that Aikido is an effective martial art.

Well, perhaps.

Doug M

[Rockwood]

Both Aikido and the Chinese internal styles are fully formed martial arts, and can be used effectively by an expert for self defense. So nobody needs to be getting all defensive.

Stories about the Wang Versus Chiba match abound but this is the best version I've seen. Since it came from Terry Dobson, who was a direct student of O-Sensei, it seems to me that he'd have no reason to lie.

I've met a couple students of Wang Shu Jin and they told me he never lost a challenge. I have reason to believe them.

Sincerley,

Jess O

FROM THE FURTHEST REACHES OF THE INTERNET:

"I will quote the story that Terry Dobson told me, which was corroborated at
another time by Donn Draeger. I also heard Terry tell this story again in
a group with Mitsugi Saotome present, who amidst laughter chimed in and
agreed. I didn't know that Ken Cottier was present but he was also part of
the group.

First, some context. Wang Shu Chin, for those who don't know, was
primarily a Pa Kua, Hsing I teacher, who also trained many years in I
Ch'uan. He was a massive man, fat over heavy muscle, in his prime, about
5'6" and about 260 lb, I'd guess. He also did t'ai chi, the syncretic form
created by Chen Pan Ling, which he did in a very different manner from
Chen (this form is, these days, often called the Guo Shu form, the
"national form" of Taiwan). Wang was the head of a neo-Taoist sect, which
strove to harmonize the major religions of the world.

As always, there are debates about how strong he really was, I studied with
him only two months when he was months away from death from melanoma. I
witnessed him knock over a very muscular kyoshinkai champion with a
side-step and belly blow, but that was a a controlled situation, not
free-style. Still, really impressive power, despite his illness. For me,
one of the most interesting measurements of his "power" was that when I
travelled in Taiwan, every teacher who was talking big and trying to
impress with his credentials claimed to have beaten Wang.

Anyway, Wang originally came over to Japan in the '60's, first to teach his
son-in-law, who had married his adopted daughter. Among the first to study
with him was Sato Kimbei. Sato, among koryu circles, was generally
considered a joke. He collected scrolls and licenses. Otsubo sensei, of
the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, told in a very public forum, of Sato apporoaching
him, asking how long it would take to get a menkyo kaiden and when Otsubo
was noncommittal, trying to bargain with him. Otsubo allowed him to train
with him and w/in two months, Sato was nowhere to be found, but years
later, he was claiming licensure in the school. Anyway, Sato hooked up
with Wang for some years, and this did give him legitimate claim to being
one of the "pioneers" of Japanese t'ai chi.

Wang used to ask a former student of Sato's to demonstrate what Sato
taught, and he and his son-in-law would pick it apart, laughing and asking
him to repeat cerain moves over and over. I also happened to be present at
a workshop when the head of the Bejing wushu society, (forgot his name -
the guy who put together the 48 movement syncretic t'ai chi form) and
another practitioner, who has won the Yang t'ai chi competition several
years running and Sato came up and told them that they weren't allowed to
teach because they hadn't asked his permission, and they looked at him like
you look at a deranged street person asking to borrow your briefcase, and
walked away shaking their heads. Sato did nothing, and left with his wife
shortly after. Sato is currently claimed as a senior infuence on the
Genbukan and Tanemura - - -Oh well.

Wang started teaching in the grounds of Meiji shrine, and somewhere along
the line a group of non-Japanese around Donn Draeger started training with
him. Draeger learned some pa-kua, Wang would also show some Hsing I, but
mostly he taught t'ai chi. Among this group was Terry Dobson, who was a
live-in student of Morihei Ueshiba of aikido. Terry's direct senior was
Chiba. Wang was doing demos in Japanese martial arts demonstrations and as
Ken Cottier put it, "here you'd have all these startched Japanese in their
crisp kiekko gi and their crisp snappy movements and then out would come
this fat Chinaman in grey flannel slacks and suspenders and he'd start
doing impossible slow t'ai chi and he'd turn around and this ass as big as
the moon would waft across the stage and then he'd challenge all comers to
have a go at him and the young karate boys would be rabid and he'd let them
punch his stomach or kick him in the groin and he'd just laugh it off but
heaven help you if you tried to punch his head. He made it clear that that
was out of bounds, and if you broke the rules, then he'd become, shall we
say, active."

Terry stated to me, (I'm quoting as best as I can remember) "the uchi-deshi
at honbu, particularly Chiba, started giving me a raft of **** that I was
being disloyal to O-sensei by studying with Wang, and I asked O-sensei, and
he said, 'sure, do what you want' but they wouldn't let up so I said, "why
don't you come and check him out for yourself." So Draeger and me took
Chiba, Saotome and Tamura. Well, we walked in, and Wang scopes out Chiba
right away, like he knows who has the attitude here, takes one look, and
says, 'come here boy.' Seriously, Wang's over sixty, paid lots of dues, is
a religious leader and all, and here comes these punks, as far as he's
concerned, in their twenties, copping an attitude. So Wang lets Chiba
punch him in the stomach. Nothing. Chiba tries again. Nothing. Well,
now Chiba loses his temper, half turns away, and then tries to sucker punch
him, thinking it's timing. This time Wang sucks the fist into his belly
and then drops, he gives it back, Chiba's arm goes shooting back behind his
ear, and he's shaking his wrist in pain. Wang then let Chiba kick him in
the groin. Nothing. So Chiba loses it, grabs Wang's wrist and puts a
nikkyo or kote-gaeshi on it, some wrist lock. I don't know what Wang did,
it was too fast, but Chiba slams on the floor and Wang's doing something to
him with one hand and he's screaming in pain. Finally Wang lets him up and
says, "You've got a little chi, why don't you come back when you acquire
more?" Then he turns to Tamura and Saotome, who were standing there with
their backs against the wall, and says, "you want to try." They both shake
their heads and we all went home. They never gave me **** about Wang
again. . . . Far as I'm concerned, Chiba lost his chance at salvation right
there. He should have quit everything and sat at Wang's feet."

[Samurai Jack]

Rockwood, I've seen that piece before. My only complaint with it is that the person telling the story hasn't been identified, and claims that he heard the story from Terry Dobson and Don Draeger, both very prolific writers who've never put this story in to print. So where did it come from? Perhaps you can shed some light since you site it.

In order to hear the other side of the coin, this excerpt comes from an interview of Chiba Sensei by Arthur Lockyear who wrote the piece for Fighting Arts International (issue #70).

" (A.L.)As we are talking about challenges would you mind telling me about your confrontation with Mr. Wang, the Tai Chi Master from China?
(Chiba)Who told you about this...Mr. Cottier perhaps?
(A.L.)Perhaps I'd better not tell...
(Laughter)
(Chiba)O.K. then. I was in a big demonstration of Martial Arts in Tokyo in the early 1960's, and Tai Chi Chuan was being shown by Mr. Wang. He was from Taiwan and he was very big indeed. He became quite famous later in Japan. Well, at the end of his display he had a number of Karateka line up in front of him, and each of them punched him in the belly. It had no effect on him. I was not impressed. I would have done something else (Sensei demonstrated a groin kick and face punch whilst saying this).
So, anyway two of my private students were also studying Tai Chi under Mr. Wang, and they were very impressed with him. They invited me to come along and see him. Eventually I accepted and went to watch his class. At the dojo my students introduced us, and he politely asked me to show some Aikido. Even though his words were warm it was still a challenge! Well, we faced each other, and Master Wang made something like Sumo posture with his hands outstretched. I stood and waited for an opening. This went on for some minutes until he moved forward to push me. So I met him, made Tai Sabaki (body evasion) and took his wrist with Kote Gaeshi, (wrist crush/reversal)...his wrist made a loud snapping noise as I applied it. Even though I applied Kote Gaeshi strongly and injured him, he did not go down. Master Wang snatched his wrist from me, and challenged me immediately. So this time he pushed me with both hands in the belly, and threw me quite a distance across the room. I landed, but I also did not go down. It was an amazing throw. My students then came between us, and that was that."

[Samurai Jack]

Ah Doug, can we not lay the animosity between us to rest? Perhaps it's just your writing style, but you often come off sounding antagonistic towards me. I'd like to give you the benifit of the doubt here and extend another apology for getting short with you last month. Perhaps we can move on.

As far as having proof of the stories passed on orally and in written format, you know I cannot provide this. Filming of such events was not a common practice in pre and post WWII Japan for several reasons. I'd like to point out that the many fantasic stories sighted concerning internal martial artists of the past are also unverifiable, but this dosen't keep people from repeating them on this forum.

Unlike many of the old-time Chinese internal artists, many of the Aikido masters I've mentioned are still alive, and are still demonstrating the level of skill attributed to them. Thankfully, they are willing to tell us what it was like to train with O-Sensei, and since these men are of impeccable character, I'm willing to take thier words for it.

[BAI HE]

Terry Dobson was there and had no reason to lie.
Chiba got squashed.

"I will quote the story that Terry Dobson told me, which was corroborated at another time by Donn Draeger. I also heard Terry tell this story again in a group with Mitsugi Saotome present, who amidst laughter chimed in and agreed. I didn't know that Ken Cottier was present but he was also part of the group.

First, some context. Wang Shu Chin, for those who don't know, was primarily a Pa Kua, Hsing I teacher, who also trained many years in I Ch'uan. He was a massive man, fat over heavy muscle, in his prime, about 5'6" and about 260 lb, I'd guess. He also did t'ai chi, the syncretic form created by Chen Pan Ling, which he did in a very different manner from Chen (this form is, these days, often called the Guo Shu form, the "national form" of Taiwan). Wang was the head of a neo-Taoist sect, which strove to harmonize the major religions of the world.

As always, there are debates about how strong he really was, I studied with him only two months when he was months away from death from melanoma. I witnessed him knock over a very muscular kyoshinkai champion with a side-step and belly blow, but that was a a controlled situation, not free-style. Still, really impressive power, despite his illness. For me, one of the most interesting measurements of his "power" was that when I travelled in Taiwan, every teacher who was talking big and trying to impress with his credentials claimed to have beaten Wang.

Anyway, Wang originally came over to Japan in the '60's, first to teach his son-in-law, who had married his adopted daughter. Among the first to study with him was Sato Kimbei. Sato, among koryu circles, was generally considered a joke. He collected scrolls and licenses. Otsubo sensei, of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, told in a very public forum, of Sato apporoaching him, asking how long it would take to get a menkyo kaiden and when Otsubo was noncommittal, trying to bargain with him. Otsubo allowed him to train with him and w/in two months, Sato was nowhere to be found, but years later, he was claiming licensure in the school. Anyway, Sato hooked up with Wang for some years, and this did give him legitimate claim to being one of the "pioneers" of Japanese t'ai chi.

Wang used to ask a former student of Sato's to demonstrate what Sato taught, and he and his son-in-law would pick it apart, laughing and asking him to repeat cerain moves over and over. I also happened to be present at a workshop when the head of the Bejing wushu society, (forgot his name - the guy who put together the 48 movement syncretic t'ai chi form) and another practitioner, who has won the Yang t'ai chi competition several years running and Sato came up and told them that they weren't allowed to teach because they hadn't asked his permission, and they looked at him like you look at a deranged street person asking to borrow your briefcase, and walked away shaking their heads. Sato did nothing, and left with his wife shortly after. Sato is currently claimed as a senior infuence on the Genbukan and Tanemura - - -Oh well.

Wang started teaching in the grounds of Meiji shrine, and somewhere along the line a group of non-Japanese around Donn Draeger started training with him. Draeger learned some pa-kua, Wang would also show some Hsing I, but mostly he taught t'ai chi. Among this group was Terry Dobson, who was a live-in student of Morihei Ueshiba of aikido. Terry's direct senior was Chiba. Wang was doing demos in Japanese martial arts demonstrations and as Ken Cottier put it, "here you'd have all these startched Japanese in their crisp kiekko gi and their crisp snappy movements and then out would come this fat Chinaman in grey flannel slacks and suspenders and he'd start doing impossible slow t'ai chi and he'd turn around and this ass as big as the moon would waft across the stage and then he'd challenge all comers to have a go at him and the young karate boys would be rabid and he'd let them punch his stomach or kick him in the groin and he'd just laugh it off but heaven help you if you tried to punch his head. He made it clear that that was out of bounds, and if you broke the rules, then he'd become, shall we
say, active."

Terry stated to me, (I'm quoting as best as I can remember) "the uchi-deshi at honbu, particularly Chiba, started giving me a raft of **** that I was being disloyal to O-sensei by studying with Wang, and I asked O-sensei, and he said, 'sure, do what you want' but they wouldn't let up so I said, "why don't you come and check him out for yourself." So Draeger and me took Chiba, Saotome and Tamura. Well, we walked in, and Wang scopes out Chiba right away, like he knows who has the attitude here, takes one look, and says, 'come here boy.' Seriously, Wang's over sixty, paid lots of dues, is a religious leader and all, and here comes these punks, as far as he's concerned, in their twenties, copping an attitude. So Wang lets Chiba punch him in the stomach. Nothing. Chiba tries again. Nothing. Well, now Chiba loses his temper, half turns away, and then tries to sucker punch him, thinking it's timing. This time Wang sucks the fist into his belly and then drops, he gives it back, Chiba's arm goes shooting back behind his ear, and he's shaking his wrist in pain. Wang then let Chiba kick him in the groin. Nothing. So Chiba loses it, grabs Wang's wrist and puts a nikkyo or kote-gaeshi on it, some wrist lock. I don't know what Wang did, it was too fast, but Chiba slams on the floor and Wang's doing something to him with one hand and he's screaming in pain. Finally Wang lets him up and
says, "You've got a little chi, why don't you come back when you acquire more?" Then he turns to Tamura and Saotome, who were standing there with their backs against the wall, and says, "you want to try." They both shake their heads and we all went home. They never gave me **** about Wang again. . . . Far as I'm concerned, Chiba lost his chance at salvation right there. He should have quit everything and sat at Wang's feet."

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by BAI HE

Terry stated to me, (I'm quoting as best as I can remember)

When you posted the above quote, are you saying that you're the one who wrote this?

[BAI HE]

No. I forgot to bold the article.