Aikido and Internal MA connected?

[Samurai Jack]

Fair enough. Where did you find the article, and who wrote it?

[BAI HE]

I don't recall. I'll look for it though.
This was by an american Aikidoka though.

BTW - No shame in losing to Wang Shu Jin, he was
a very bad, bad man.

He KO'd a prime Kumar, Hung Yisheng (in a friendly manner)
and hurt Jon Bluming on two different occasions.

[Samurai Jack]

Well, no offense, but unless you can provide a verifiable source I'll stick with those versions which come from the people who were actually there. Strangely, though Terry Dobson was supposedly the one who related the story to our mysterious author, he himself didn't choose to "quit everything and (sit) at Wang's feet." Instead Dobson Sensei chose to continue studying Aikido with O-Sensei and his Sempai Chiba Sensei, and never wrote anything about this incident, nor anything critical of his experiences with Aikido as an art.

As an aside, I recognize that there would be no face lost if Chiba lost to Wang either as Wang was many years Chiba Sensei's senior. After fifty years in the martial arts, I doubt Chiba Sensei feels the need to prove himself to a bunch of newbie Americans. If he had lost, I think he would have said so.

[BAI HE]

For my thoughts, the story smacks of truth. Two of Chiba's classmates related the story. Why would they do this?

The sheer absurdity of Wang taking a sumo pose and pushing Chiba in the belly should tell you something.

The only strange thing is that Chiba took a sucker shot at Wang and Wang didn't really hurt him. It did take place in Japan tho'.

[BAI HE]

"I will quote the story that Terry Dobson told me, which was corroborated at another time by Donn Draeger. I also heard Terry tell this story again in a group with Mitsugi Saotome present, who amidst laughter chimed in and agreed. I didn't know that Ken Cottier was present but he was also part of the group."


I no longer travel in Aiki circles. Maybe you can contact
one of these folks listed. (Except for Draeger for the obvious reasons)

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by BAI HE
For my thoughts, the story smacks of truth. Two of Chiba's classmates related the story. Why would they do this?

Ah, but since your source is unrevealed, we cannot verify whether or not the classmates actually related the story. As it's you who doubt Chiba Sensei's story, I'd think you would be the one who'd want to contact him personally.

Originally posted by BAI HE
The sheer absurdity of Wang taking a sumo pose and pushing Chiba in the belly should tell you something.

Not absurd at all. Every shot I've ever seen of Wang taking a punch for a demonstration showed him standing in what could be described as a sumo pose:

http://www.marnixwells.info/Images/W...%20_paunch.jpg

http://images.google.com/images?q=tb...nfo/album/data

He's also very open when demonstrating form:

http://www.kwoon.info/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=268

http://www.taijiquan.info/img/zhuang-v.gif

Here’s a photo of B.K. Frantzis throwing someone with the sort of projection technique common to IMA:

http://www.energyarts.com/shared/lib...ery/fajing.jpg

Isn’t one of the applications of Pa Kua’s “lotus palm” or “monkey offer’s peach” a strike to the abdomen with both open hands? I’m pretty sure it’s a very common technique.

Originally posted by BAI HE
The only strange thing is that Chiba took a sucker shot at Wang and Wang didn't really hurt him. It did take place in Japan tho'.

Once more, because we cannot verify your source, we cannot verify this claim. I find it highly suspicious that Chiba would “sucker punch” someone since he was trying to demonstrate his art. Aikido doesn’t really have a “sucker punch” in it’s repertoire, so it wouldn’t have really proved anything if he had succeeded. Secondly, how exactly does one “sucker punch” one of the greatest Kung Fu masters of the twentieth century while he is fighting a challenge match? Shouldn’t he be expecting a punch?

[BAI HE]

"Not absurd at all. Every shot I've ever seen of Wang taking a punch for a demonstration showed him standing in what could be described as a sumo pose:"

Demonstration of taking a blow. Although, considering that Wang's primary teacher was Chang Chao Tung and the manner in which he taught, everything must have felt like a "tap" compared.

As far as "testing Gung'? There are demonstratons of this power.
As far as JMA is concerned? Too much loss of face involved, so you don't see much of this "testing". Maybe Judo-Kai though.

Again, the onus is on you. I am no longer part and parcel of the Aiki-JMA thing. Disprove the version that I submitted. Is that too hard? This wouldn't be the first, or last time Chiba Sensei was cat in a questionable light.

As far as his "Tai Sabaki" crap on Wang? No art specializes more thoroughly on protecting the centerline and destroying the opponenent's centerline than Xing-Yi. So while Chiba is applying Kote Gaeshi, what's Wang's other hand doing? Chiba speaks as if this was a Demo...? That's what Chiba does, Wang? He cracked people like cocaine and never said a word about any of it.
It just didn,t matter. Win, lose or draw? He never talked about that stuff, it just came with the territory.

The guys who did talk about it? Westerners. RW Smith, BK Frantzis, Donn Draeger and Jon Bluming.


Wang was a once in a lifetime Martial artist, even if Chiba gets his wrist? What about the rest of him? Do you really think Chiba Sensei could beat any of Bluming, Frantzis or Draeger in their primes?

Try comparing Wang to O-Sensei (save the fact that Wang fought people that weren't his students) That is where Wang belongs, if in fact O- Sensei was that good at all. I'd be a hell of a lot more afraid of Sokaku Takeda than Ueshiba.

Furthermore, all the Aiki stuff I played againjst my BGZ/XY teacher?
He either countered (wrecking me) or simply "let go" or twisted out of. I'm not asking you to believe me, because whatever art you are studying? It's usually the "best". It just gave me a different perspective.

If you wan't to get a better opinion, I suggest you look up "STRAWDOG" on www.emptyflower.com or "Meynard" at www.Shenwu.com

He has more experience in both the CIMA's and JMA/Aiki arts than I can lay claim to and has studied with about the best there is
stateside in these arts.

[BAI HE]

http://www.energyarts.com/shared/lib...ery/fajing.jpg

Basic Fa-Jing release. No lotus palm.

[BAI HE]

http://www.taijiquan.info/img/zhuang-v.gif

Standing postures. Wu Ji.

[BAI HE]

http://www.kwoon.info/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=268

Zhuang Zuan. Stake standing variation.

[BAI HE]

http://www.marnixwells.info/Images/W...%20_paunch.jpg

US boxing coach Joe Brown testing Wang's skill. This was a demo.

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by BAI HE

Again, the onus is on you. I am no longer part and parcel of the Aiki-JMA thing. Disprove the version that I submitted. Is that too hard?

I think I've done an admirable job of proving that your version is suspicious. If you disagree, please feel free to reveal the source of your "version". How hard can it be? You supposedly found it somewhere. Who authored your story? I'm asking direct questions here that should be easy to answer.

I've provided verifiable sources, and photographs supporting my position, which is merely that according to the available evidence Chiba Sensei fought Wang to a draw. I really can't see what more can be done to prove my point. If you want to continue disputing the facts I've provided, you can start providing some facts of your own. That's all I'm asking.

[Joseph_alb]

Im a little curious about something....

Forget about it being xingyi and aikido, just think martial arts, ok.
Wang was around 60 at the time? between 40 to 50 years of experience in MA's. Chiba was in his 20's...i dunno you do the math. I find it a little far fetched that a martial artist in his 20's would have a draw...or any kind of advantage...over someone that experienced, regardless of MA's used.

Am i the only one who sees this?

[Samurai Jack]

Originally posted by Joseph_alb
I find it a little far fetched that a martial artist in his 20's would have a draw...or any kind of advantage...over someone that experienced, regardless of MA's used.

Yeah, that's a good point. On the other hand, how many 60 year olds do you see owning young guys in street-fights, MMA matches, heck even Chinese Sanda or San Shou? Personally, I have to admit that I've never EVER seen an old man beat up a strong young man. Not that this invalidates your observation, but it certainly gives food for thought.

For me, this isn't about whether or not Chiba beat Wang or vice versa. Whether or not Chiba lost, according to the unverified story Chiba acted like a jerk. Also, if we are to believe the unverified story, Chiba Sensei is a liar. This seems extremly improbable given what I know of the man. Despite his rough and tumble reputation, Chiba Sensei has demonstrated a high degree of respect for his elders over the years, and an impeccable level of openness and sincerity.

Chiba Sensei also hasn't ever shown a racist streak toward anyone.Chiba Sensei's taught students and started oraganizations in the U.S.A., South Africa, Great Britain, Canada, Japan, North and South Korea, the former U.S.S.R., France, Spain, Vietnam, the Phillipines, and Australia. I doubt this incident had anything to do with Wang being Chinese.

Conjecture isn't the same thing as fact, and the fact is someone's circulating an extremly caustic criticism against my teacher. I want to know where it came from.

[Joseph_alb]

True, 50 year olds dont fight very often, if ever. But this is my point...

Im going to asume your in your 20's Jack, or just plain young. Would you stand a chance against the Doshu, for example, or Yamada sensei? thats my point.

Its hard to know the truth about something that happened so long. Martial arts are full of historic things and we may never know exactly what happened, unfortunally.

In the end theres no sense in breaking our heads trying to figure out who won...there will always be sides to the story.