IQ and Race

[Mika]

OK, it is time to stir the pot again

http://www.ssc.uwo.ca/psychology/fac...n_Behavior.pdf

In Finland, these matters have been the talk of the town lately as the Prime Minister's father caused some controversy with one of his studies, and the police even thought about investigating his remarks. Anywho, that's neither here nor there, but there are well organized studies and publications covering this very, very controversial topic.

Mika

[SevenStar]

this is a flame war waiting to happen.... I'm keeping my mouse pointer close to the "close thread" function...

[ZIM]

To the contrary, this ought to be fun. Libs will argue it means precisely nothing, all the while pointing out that Red Staters have lower IQs.

[SifuAbel]

press it. before its too late.

[Mika]

Maybe you're right, you know the folks here a 1000 x better than I do, but I do hope you are mistaken for once.

This is a scientific topic, and even if the task at hand might not lead anywhere, I would hope some discussion about sociobiology would emerge. That's my real goal. To keep the quick ones at bay, I wrote that "stirring up the pot". It's a subtle hint to think before posting.

Cheers

Mika

[Mika]

Before anyone posts anything, he or she should either read the article or otherwise be scientifically familiar with the topic. Naturally. Hearsays and opinions are not of great interest here.

Just wanted to make that clear

Mika

[Chang Style Novice]

Stephen Jay Gould's The Mismeasure of Man

[IronFist]

Does anyone else hate .pdf files on the web?

We've talked about this before. There's been studies that said in intelligence it goes Asian, White, Black, and then there have been studies that refute that.

There have also been studies that said in terms of physical prowess it goes Black, White, Asian. Evidence of this can kind of be seen by the fact that blacks dominate every sport they play (not swimming or hockey because there's not a lot of black people who play those sports, demographically speaking). But look at NBA, MLB, and NFL. Exactly. I think there's also been studies that show that black people have genetically less myostatin, a muscle-inhibiting enzyme. Less myostatin would result in more muscle growth with less effort. It's worth noting that all myostatin-inhibitors (for use as supplements) they have tested so far have not worked and have caused some bad side effects in rats or something. Also worth mentioning is that one German 4 year old who is twice as muscular as every other kid his age; he has a genetic mutation that causes him to have less myostatin than normal people, hence bigger muscles.

Anyway, I've not seen any studies that say black people are less intelligent, but keep in mind that the demographics in a case study like this could have HUGE effects on the results. I wrote about this at length on another board once, and I don't feel like writing it again. But I'll see if I can find it later.

If you want to discuss this keep it on topic and civil. We don't need another good discussion getting deleted.

[Mika]

CSN, I hope you have done your background check on Gould.

Iron, that's right. I too hope we can go somewhere with this. We'll see...

[Chang Style Novice]

Background check? What, are you bothered by the fact that he's from a Jewish family and politically liberal?

Please explain yourself. Certain of Gould's theories are controversial, but the idea that intellegence is not racially determined is certainly not.

[Mika]

CNS, I am a little amazed at your assumptions. Please, refrain from them, OK?

If you are familiar with the literature (related to sociobiology), you should know how Gould is viewed. Even if the article behind the link is invalid, Gould never offers anything better. He has his reasons, I am sure, but those are not at question. Only what he writes is important, and what he does write is not considered scientific (at least his rants and raves about sociobiology). Gould (and a few others like him) never offer anything concrete to challenge a theory, they just - very Freudian of them - dismiss everything. Pathos.

A book by a Finnish author, Ullica Segerstråle, reveals the reasons for today's debate about sociobiology. She's been there, she's talked to all the key players. The book is called "Defenders of the Truth".

Mika

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i started reading this with an open mind, as i certainly believe in racial differences as i've made clear before, but this just seems retarded so far. im about half way through ... ill try to finish the entire thing before making a final judgement.

[Icewater]

My real name is Tonto Goldstein, but my friends call me 'Bubba'...

[FuXnDajenariht]

well....I dont think race matters for the simple fact that i believe in reincarnation. Meaning that people through out their many lives inhabited bodies from many different "races". Just depends on how best they will develop or what they can offer, or what lessons they need to learn.

Any differences you perceive in someones "intelligence" seems more cultural to me. If you take a person out of their element they can mentally develop any number of ways. Im trying to be pc about this but of course some cultures are more advanced than others, but it has nothing to do with race. Someone from a country believing heavily in superstition might very well make an American seem like Einstein, since out education system is based on science from the start.

Its obvious though, if you look through history that every "race" in the world has had their times of great achievement. Its all cyclical. One culture dies and another finds enlightenment. One region of the world might seem less advanced now but it probably hasn't always been that way or isn't likely to stay that way. Would European culture in the dark ages compare to now? They seem plain psychotic to us.

Oh yea...Plus im not white so i refuse to believe something like that. Its pretty absurd if you think about it all. Science/Darwinism taken out of context just like religion. All that IQ and race stuff is a modern invention. Back in ancient times anyone that wasn't part of your culture was usually backwards or barbaric but that was all politics like it is today, justification for oppression. Greek culture saw the good in Egyptian culture. Romans took ideas from Persians, their sworn enemies. who in turn traded culture with Asia.... South American culture could of rivaled anything in Europe...... ?

[FngSaiYuk]

OK, read it...

Conclusion- there are differences between people, but this paper does not prove anything beyond genetic predisposition for some groups and the effect of the environment. And really, the data presented is not by any means complete enough to draw any specific conclusions.

Bottom line is, everyone is born unique, has a unique life. One is born with certain genetic advantages and disadvantages, certain environmental advantages and disadvantages and certain amount of resources available to them throughout their lives. The use of resources, the decisions made by and for, and the circumstances life presents, or at times appears to force upon, one shape the person.