Boxers are petty internal fighters

[phoenixdog]

western boxers are internal in punching.Take any CMA and put 16oz gloves on them and you work the focus mits. No power.Do the same with a 6 month amateur boxer,you'll feel the difference.You have to hit internally to KO with gloves.

[Buby]

I disagree. All you need a punch strong enough to snap the persons head back, so that the brain hits the skull hard enough and its lights out. Being hit internally doesn't even feel like a regular hit and is usually very subtle.

Take care,
Buby

[phoenixdog]

I can hit a persons head with a 2X4 and make the same thing happen..My point was that western boxers learn internal hitting right off the bat. NPI.

[Buby]

And my point is that they don't hit internaly. Its an external strike. You used the example that they can knock people out with gloves on and I'm saying that just cause you knock someone out with gloves doesn't make it an internal hit.

Also, what do you consider as internal hit?

Buby

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by Buby
And my point is that they don't hit internaly. Its an external strike. You used the example that they can knock people out with gloves on and I'm saying that just cause you knock someone out with gloves doesn't make it an internal hit.

Also, what do you consider as internal hit?

Buby

IMHO, boxing is pretty **** external. It's about as external as you can get. That's why they do so much external conditioning, ie running, lifting, pushups, bagwork, etc.

The technique of some boxers like Muhammed Ali might have ventured into the external side of kung fu because they were more relaxed in there striking. But none of them approached the "internalness" of what we classically think of as Internal Martial Arts.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ai Lek Ou Seun

The technique of some boxers like Muhammed Ali might have ventured into the external side of kung fu because they were more relaxed in there striking. But none of them approached the "internalness" of what we classically think of as Internal Martial Arts.

They ventured into the external side of boxing, not kung fu. that relaxation is not unique to cma. you are saying that none of them approach the "internalness" of cma, however other members of these forums on various threads (who do study internal styles) disagree with you. So, what exactly is this "internalness" and why can you all not agree on what it is or isn't?

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by SevenStar
They ventured into the external side of boxing, not kung fu. that relaxation is not unique to cma. you are saying that none of them approach the "internalness" of cma, however other members of these forums on various threads (who do study internal styles) disagree with you. So, what exactly is this "internalness" and why can you all not agree on what it is or isn't?

I explained it under my other handle Tigrentera.

Internal=making your body like a big "variable outer tension" gummy bear.

In order to strike internally you have to "bounce" your energy off the ground. Other wise it is still external. Structure is part of it but it still doesn't make it internal.

People can't agree on what internal is because there are people on this board of varying skill level.

Chen Xiaowang compared learning IMA's to walking up a spiral staircase. Depending on how far up you are in the spiral you are going to see things slightly differently. I'm not gonna say that those people aren't partially correct, its just that they don't see the bigger picture.

I don't know about other people but my lineage is about as good as you can get. My teacher's teacher Feng Zhiqiang learned directly from Chen Fake in Chen Taiji. He learned Xing Yi and Tong Bei and Shaolin before that it.

I have touched hands with Master Feng as well as my own teacher and I can tell you that there is a HUGE difference in body use.

If you don't believe it then seek out someone quaified in my Taiji lineage and feel the difference. It is immediately obvious.

[fiercest tiger]

What does an internal punch feel like? I have seen many boxing matches where a boxer dies from a punch to the head. A boxer is still punching like a martial artist and boxing is also classed as a martial art in my books, Just no legs!

People get there ribs broken off a body rip punch also, thats pretty good punching skill to break the ribs using gloves.

Anyway what is an internal punch/strike?

FT

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

I think what you guys fail to realize is that saying a punch is internal doesn't necessarily = more powerful.

It simply means that is executed using a different way of moving.

The reason is that if you punch externally is sets your momentum up to be used against you.

If you punch internally then everything remains balanced and your momentum is negligible.

[denali]

The simple truth is that if you understand internal, then you can make any movement internal.

If you don't even understand this, then you are not qualified to say anything is internal or external simply based on outward appearance.

[Ai Lek Ou Seun]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
What does an internal punch feel like?
FT

Well I've been hit by a Xing Yi guy as well as a (very softly) by my Taiji teacher. Oddly, it feels cold and penetrating. Like it is a steel needle going through part of your body rather than a battering ram that knocks your whole body back.

The force seems to be more concentrated in a single place rather than dispersed over a larger area.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ai Lek Ou Seun
I think what you guys fail to realize is that saying a punch is internal doesn't necessarily = more powerful.

It simply means that is executed using a different way of moving.

This I understand... to an extent. I know mechanics are different, such as taiji's coiling, but from my limited knowledge of coiling, I'd say external guys utilize it also, albeit not quite to the same extent.

The reason is that if you punch externally is sets your momentum up to be used against you.

If you punch internally then everything remains balanced and your momentum is negligible.

this I do not understand. Can you clarify?

[Yum Cha]

Its always difficult to talk about physical actions, because, you can never be totally sure you are talking about the same thing, however, hand to hand, face to face, you can easily convey the information.

The issue of remaining balanced and not succumbing to momentum is an interesting one.

I find a lot of westerners throw their shoulder into a punch. Throw the shoulder, drive through with the arm. The fist travels from point a to point b, however often (not always) the hips travel from point a to point a-and-a-half.

Think along the lines of fist moving from point a to b, and hips moving from point a to b. The penetration of the punch is the same, a to b, but the complete body is behind it. And if that complete body is a bit larger, so is the additional energy. Weight as a component of final issued energy.

I don't think "coiling" works for me as a term. I understand coiling, but its just the beginning, and its a telegraph. To me, its like a cartoon cell. One frame is perfectly balanced potential energy. The next is perfectly balanced issued force. Every state contains both the balanced expended force, and the balanced potential force. It has to be a full body thing, not just a few elements. Footwork is critical, and often unnoticed or subtle. The more you can coordinate your full body, the less any single element has to carry the responsibility for delivering the power. Speed increases, relaxation under stress becomes easier.

But, internal, external? I still don't know what that means..

I think its just an arbitrary label for something that takes lots of practice and control.

Holding the power inside your muscles, or gathering it up and injecting it into your target. Speed, focus, intent.

[X-Warrior]

I have studied both 'internal' and 'external' traditional arts. I agree, many of you understand the difference between these styles but I see some confusions in some of the messages. Let me explain it from my experiences, from my point of view.

With external arts you mainly rely on the use and strenght of your muscles and bones. To develop this kind of power one does a great deal of 'power trainings' such as push ups, sit ups, running, use of weight training and other physical and aerobic excercises that strenghten the bones and muscles. The damaging effects from this kind of power is clearly visible on the body: open wounds, bleeding, bruses, broken body parts. External martial artists are usually muscular, and visibly strong.

Internal arts develop internal power which is the use of the body as an entire - not to be confused with the Chi. The energy starts at the rooted feet and each body part adds its own strenght to it as it transfers it to the next. As the energy is getting closer to the delivering part, it gets stronger and stronger, each body part adds its own streght to the energy. It is kind of like a chain reaction in the body. The use of this kind of power is not as visible as the external power, the opponent receiving the punch will be damaged internally, usually some of the organs: stomach, hearth, lungs, arteries or could be bones. Masters of internal arts often skinny and weak looking but this look is deceiving.

It is not the developement but the use Chi that divides these two styles from one another. External arts develop and use the Chi equally but to strenghten the muscles and bones while the internal arts use it to increase the powers that are added with each part. There is no clear line between internal and external arts for they both use - and must use - a bit of the other. They both must use the other somewhat in order to function, just like neither ying nor yang will ever exist by themselves at any given time. Learn both styles and use the one that is useful at the given situation.

How can I best compare these two powers? So far the best explanation I read about this was the use of a bat compared with a whip. The bat will damage the body on the surface more visibly while the whip, painful as the bat is but only leaves a small mark on the body.

X-Warrior

[SiuHung]

Originally posted by X-Warrior
The use of this kind of power is not as visible as the external power, the opponent receiving the punch will be damaged internally, usually some of the organs: stomach, hearth, lungs, arteries or could be bones. Masters of internal arts often skinny and weak looking but this look is deceiving.

X-Warrior

Okay not to pick on you, but this sounds like something you were told...Have you experienced either causing or recieving this inernal damage yourself? I'v known some really good internal practitioners that could kick my butt. For every one I've met that's got that ability, there's 10 who look weak, are weak, and have no ability to land a strike on someone under pressure with any amount of force.