Questions on Bak Sil Lum

[herb ox]

I really think the biggest period of growth for me personally occurred after moving away from my Sifu - I had studied under him for close to 8 years and was an instructor for him as well. It was wonderful to have so much resource at my fingertips, yet I never really knew it - as Peter Tosh put it "you never miss your water until your well runs dry...." (yes, I'm sure he lifted that quote from somewhere as well... )

Regardless, after moving to the North Bay where I now reside, I felt the relative cultural vacuum drawing the kungfu from my body -but, nay, I say, I resisted and found the drive to practice on my own. And that's when the real growth started happening (did you ever see a movie called "How to get ahead in advertising"?) - anyways, I had to expand upon the martial knowledge that had been passed to me. Soon I found myself returning to the basics over and over again. No longer was instruction given to me... I had to teach myself, in essence. The more I practiced the basics, the deeper I got and started to understand the techniques from a different perspective. Soon, a few bredren and myself began sparring bareknuckle and from there I sought to apply what I had been practicing for a decade to fighting skill. My Sifu wasn't there to give me pointers anymore, though. I had to figure it out myself.

Bottom line really is we tend to take our lessons for granted - we often simply do as we are told without actually examining and understanding the technique. So, my point is (yes, there is a point after all...) after training for awhile I think it's a good idea to take a break from the instruction and practice on your own or with a partner. Now I'm so hungry for my Sifu's teaching, whenever I see his technique, I'm like a sponge absorbing his wisdom. It's made a world of difference for me.

peace, bredren

br. ox

[GeneChing]

LHK: I can see the pedagogical structure you're propounding, except for stage three. Aren't stage one and two both manifestations of stage three? By meditation, do you mean zazen or are you looking at it in a larger context?
I'd agree with the flexibility before strength progression in BSL, but I wouldn't say that it is limited to this strategy at all. So far, everyone on this thread is looking at BSL from the perspective of access to all of the BSL10. However there are plenty of BSL cousins (shall we call them 'once removed"?) who only have access to the short 5 sets, or even less. They still find value in that and can apply it to combat. For example, you could just study BSL #6 and have stuff that could be applicable to fighting. You don't get the whole system, but then again, who really does get it all? That's the essence of my objection to people who say it takes a long time to get anywhere in BSL. If you want the complete system, you're going to have to keep practicing, at least until you die. If you just want to fight quickly, you can do that too. It really depends where you want to go.

HO: The "well runs dry" parable is usually attributed to Elijah who faces drought, again biblical. You can't be a good rasta and not engage the bible. Teachers can only be a doorway; the student has to step through. A good teacher opens a lot of doors. A good student goes through them all.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

The whole system can build quite a martial arts master. But it only takes one BSL set, backed by solid basics, to build a fighter. It's all about how your approach it.

This is so true. There are some people who only practice Tan Tui and that's it. In my school we practice a two person Tan Tui sparring set that has a multitude of possible fighting applications. Especially if one was to think each move through and look at all of the possible counters and defensive moves that can be done. I learned this set from Wong Jack Man as did Brent Hamby, the 1999 USAWKF National Champ. Brent has gone as far as to say that, where practical fighting is concerned, Tan Tui and Tai Chi is all you really need.

I was curious about other BSL curriculums. The way our progression goes (as far as forms are concerned) is like this:

Tan Tui (single and two person)
Lim Po (coherent step)
Sui Wan (small circles)
Bang Po (mantis)
10 forms
Weapons (your choice)
then maybe Lo-Han Boxing (which is way cool)

Lim Po, Sui Wan, and Bang Po are meant to be like preparatory forms for the ten core forms. We can choose to start learning Hsing-Yi and/or Yang style Tai Chi at any time as well. Is this a similiar format to any other schools? I understand this was close to the way certain teachers taught their BSL at the original Jing Mo Academy in Hong Kong.

[NorthernShaolin]

SLF,

Actually the original Jing Mo School in HK did not teach BSL. BSL was originally taught by three sifus in HK who were all classmates of KYC and were not part of the Jing Mo school in HK. They were LTH, YSW and MCF. (However MCF learned and was always associated with the Jing Mo school in Kwangchou.)

LTH and YSW taught the 10 row Tan T'ui as their first set then Lien Bo Chuan as the second set while MCF taught Lien Bo as his first set and then 12 row Tan Tui as his second set. LTH and YSW never taught Lo Han while MCF did.

Sifu Wong (WJM) taught a combination of two curriculums (Kuo Shu from KYC and Kwangchou's Jing Mo from SYF). That is why Wong Sifu taught so many varity of weapon sets as compaired to his counterpart sifus in BSL. Also at one time, Wong Sifu's BSL's curriculum once extended beyond most current existing BSL's curriculums but now that he is older, he too, has cut back in his BSL curriculum.

Bang Bo Chuan is really not part of BSL's curriculum. He originally only taught it for fun but his older students kept requesting him to teach it so he decided to add it.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Thanks for all of the valuable info. I was just wondering who LTH and MCF are? I was thinking MCF must be Ma Gim Fung. He is the one who passed down the Lo Han sets isn't he? I also think he's the one who said the three components of combat are courage, strength, and techniques (similiar to WJM's mantra for combat components). I don't know much about him other than that he trained under Shun Yu Fung (SYF) who was the head instructor at the Canton Jing Mo Athletic Association.

[NorthernShaolin]

You are correct and his Lo han is different than the Shaolin Lo Han that most people are always referring to. His Lo Han is BSL Lo Han which is a different branch than Shaolin Lo Han. In his days , Ma was well known as one of the toughest BSL 'street fighter'.

LTH is Lung Tzu Hsiang who is KYC's other well known disciple.

[Lokhopkuen]

Quote:
Aren't stage one and two both manifestations of stage three? By meditation, do you mean zazen or are you looking at it in a larger context?

Stages one and two logically lead to stage three I can say from my personal experience but In terms of meditation I think he is speaking not only about the ‘single point’ meditation of being in the moment but also the whole concept of self realization.

“The training of self awareness can be developed via meditation, self reflection or as the book of war states “Know your enemy, know yourself, in a thousand battles you’ll never be defeated.....

Peace

[Lokhopkuen]

Our school’s progression is:

Lim Po
Tan Tui (10 roads)
Tun da #6
Moi Fa #7
Bot Bo #8
Hoy Moon #1
Chun Sam #4
Wu I #5
Leng Lo #2
Jo Ma #3
Lien Wan #9
Sik Fot #10

We also practice several sets from 7 stars
Bung bo
Moi fa sau
Moi Fa low
Moi fa Kuen
Joi Kuen law hon (Drunken mantis)
There are a few others who's names excape me I don't practice those sets.

Several sets from Hung Gar
Tiger Crane
Taming the tiger
Iron Wire

As well as Tai Chi (Yang’s) Hsing Yi 5 elements connect and Twelve Animals, Whipping Dragon Bagua.
All related weapons sets

Peace

[NorthernShaolin]

Lokhopkuen, Thanks for the info. It is always interesting how different branches present their curriculum.

SLF,

Well, times have changed since I learned from Wong Sifu. During the time when I was learning, the school's curriculum was very strict and had to comply with the Jing Mo rules. During the 1960's, HK Jing Mo was very unorganized and Shanghai's Jing Mo was non existnce. The Head Chairperson of Jing Mo USA was Peter Quack (can't think of his Chinese name) and was the senior classmate of Brendan Lai. Wong Sifu open the first Jing Mo school in the earily 1960's and with approval from the Chairperson, Wong Sifu intergrated Jing Mo's standard 10 sets with his BSL curriculum in 1964. Every student had to follow this curriculum except the student was allow to skip Tai Chi.

General Curriculum

Lien Bo
12 row Tan T'ui
Sil Wah Chuan
BSL#6
Fire Water Staff
Jing Mo Bagua Saber (or can chose BSL's Pak Chi Saber)
Hsing I (Continious Fist)
BSL#7
Ground Demon Staff
Double Saber vs Spear
BSL#8
Raise Blocking Spear
BSL#5
Lui Ho Chuan
Tai Chi Chuan
Dragon Pheonix Sword (Wu Tang)
Lo Han Sparring
Ch'a#4
BSL #4
BSL#1
Plum Blossom Double Swords
BSL#2
Loose Wrist Saber Fighting
Double Hook Axes
Long Bench
BSL#3
Plum Blossom Chain
BSL#9
BSL#10
Spring Autumn Big Knife

For those individuals who had demonstrated a higher level of skills were required to learn the other Jing Mo Standard sets such as Five Tiger Spear, Shepard Staff, Tamo Sword, Gung Lic Chuan, Big Battle Chuan, etc. with in the same period as the above sets. These individuals were designated to be Jing Mo future instructors. This satisfied Jing Mo's requirement of it's 10 Standard sets.

After the above listed 30 sets in the curriculum, if the individual wish to continued his studies, there was an advance curriculum which contained another 30 sets of BSL sparring sets, BSL weapons (advance level of saber, sword and spear and other sets like horse knife, halberd, monk's spade, Triple section staff, etc.), BSL Lo Han Hand sets and Hsing I (Animals, sparring and weapons)

After 1975, Wong Sifu's curriculum changed to include more internal sets and many of the BSL weapons, Jing Mo standard sets and BSL Lo Han sets were dropped from his curriculum. Wong Sifu was no longer producing any more Jing Mo instructors and so individuals who completed their studies from Wong Sifu after 1975 cannot use the Jing Mo school's name for their school.

[Fen]

Our school’s progression at Fen Kwoon.
Louie Sifu, helped with setting up our curriculum and this is what we are teaching now. We worked on this for over a year to make sure it was laid out the best way possible. It’s not a lot like some others that teach BSL. But It works good for us.

General Curriculum
Set one Basics
Lien Bo
10 row Tan T'ui
Sil Wah Chuan
Lo Han one
BSL#6
9 Island staff
BSL#7
Pi Chi Saber
BSL#8
BSL Two man Staff
BSL#5
Raise Blocking Spear
BSL#4
Five Tiger Staff
BSL#3
BSL Horse Knife
BSL#2
Long Bench or Two Section Staff
BSL#1
Saber vs Spear
BSL two Man Set
Dragon Sword
BSL#9
Double Daggers
BSL#10
Tiger Hook Swords
18 Hands of BSL
Dragon Head Kwan Do

Extra Sets:
The 10 Jing Mo sets, Gin Li Gin Ho ( 1 of two southern sets I know from Ark Wong side), Lo Han 2-4, Lo Han Sparring, Dragon Staff, Three Section Staff and some Mantis sets along with a few others. As for internal sets: Tai Chi, Yang and Chen short and long. Hard and soft Qigong and some Bagua and a little XingI.


~Jason

[kai men]

Dear fellows, I am enjoying this thread. I have been absent for so long and now I would like to add our program :
1) Yes, Chan Kowk Wai is now 68 years old and still attending classes personally monday to Sunday.
2) Our program:
1) Lim Po Kuin (Lien bu Chuan)
2) Shaolin # 6
3) Shaolin # 7
4) (Sometimes) Sap Pa Sao (from 7 stars praying mantis)
5) Shaolin # 4
6) Shaolin # 5
7) Shaolin # 8
8) Luo Hap Kuin (Liu ho chuan)
9) Long Forms of BSL in this order: 3,2,1,9,10.
10) Futsan Hung Sing Choy Li Fat first Set
11) (Whenever the student get serious: Tam Tui 10 an 12)
12) Special Form "18 hands" of BSL
13) Special Form Snake
14) Special Form Buddha Palm
15) Special Form Monkey
16) Special Form Drunken
17) Special form Crane

Moreover, there are lots of weapons forms - many mentioned in other lists - and Small Golden Bell and Iron Palm Training.
GM CHan also includes Yi Jin Jing (a version very close to Small Golden Bell) and :
- Internal Arts (Ku Tai Chi Chuan, Pa Kua, Hsing Yi, Liang Yi)
- Seven Star Praying Mantis
- Cha Chuan nr 4
- Fan Tsi Yin Chao
- Luohan Chuan (Ma Kin Fong lineage)

Kind regards
Horacio

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Wow, my list wasn't nearly as complete or as rich as all of the ones that came after it. That's mainly because I wasn't that familiar with Wong Sifu's original curriculum and he's not as strict about it anymore. To a certain degree he'll allow you to choose what sets you want to learn next. Like NorthernShaolin said, the BSL sets are learned in the order of 6, 7, 8, 5, 4, 1, 2, 3, 9, and 10. But since he's more into internal stuff at this point, you could choose to start learning Yang style Tai Chi, or Sun style Hsing Yi at any stage in your training. This might also be because he's mainly only teaching advanced practitioners at this point. There have been a lucky few of us who aren't as advanced (like myself) but even then he still would expect you to have had some prior training.

As far as weapons go, he will still start you out with the staff (Fire Water and Ground Demon) and then usually Jing Mo Bagua Saber. As far as two person sets, I've mainly seen Double Saber vs Spear and Triple Section Staff vs Spear. But like I said, it seems like he's mainly into teaching Tai Chi and Hsing Yi these days so there aren't many of us learning all of the hard sets.

[GeneChing]

...I did this article as a sort of FAQ on BSL (in contrast to Songshan). Seems to have worked, since I don't have to post this over and over again, just link to the article. Of course, I worked on a video series too, but that wasn't in order, and I'm sure all you BSLers are "in the know" about that.