Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 41

Thread: Thai Boxing Seminar Notes

  1. #16

    Re: Make your mind up!

    Originally posted by chisauking
    Although MT (Muay Thai) is very fast-effective and lethal, the price to pay for success, for me, just isn't worth it. No matter what I do in life, I apply myself 110% If I were to do that in MT, I know I would be seriously damaged in mid- or old-age.

    If you compete for too long, yes. The same would happen if there were a competition WC circuit. You jave to be smArt enough to know when to stop competing.

    Also due to the hard nature of MT, the chance of a smaller opponent overcoming the size and strentgh advantage of a bigger opponent is substantially less than in wing chun.

    you'd be surprised how much power goes into elbow and knee strikes, and also how much a leg kick can hurt. It's possible for the smaller guy to win, but just as with anything else, he will have to be that much better than the bigger guy.

    To me, learning to defend one self and keeping healthy to old age in order to become one with the universe and peace with myself is the ultimate objective of learning any martial art. It rather defeats one's objective if the system you are learning inflicts more pain & damage than the possiblity of damage you may receive by attacks on the streets in your lifetime.

    that will vary from person to person. I personally don't care about being one with the universe through MA. I have church for any spiritual aspects of my life.

    As I have said before, martial arts doesn't turn you into a superman; it simply gives you an egde in fighting.

    agreed.

    A micro-second could mean the differnce between winning or losing, life or death. People who thinks that the more you learn, the more effective you would be is deluding themselves. If you were to learn WC, BBJ, MT, Preying Mantis, etc., etc, what technique would you choose in your time of need? WC or MT? BBJ or WC? The thoughts process would be substantially longer than if you only had 1 choice, would not it?


    actually, no, it wouldn't. you would use what you are comfortable with. I have trained in karate, longfist and jkd in the past. I currently train bjj, judo and thai boxing. When I am in the ring, I resort to what I am comfortable with. I mainly use thai boxing techniques, but I also use a hook kick pretty well. In judo, I don't differentiate between a judo and a bjj tactic - I just react. The principles are all the same anyway, just different means of using them.


    Take the example of a multiple choice question with 3 possibilities, and another with 30 possibilites. Which question would be quicker to answer, or in terms of selection of responce techniques, which one would be quicker to process? What I'm trying to say is, choosing one style is better than choosing 3 styles. Or, as Bruce Lee would say, one good punch is better than 1000 lousy punches.

    More is not always better in combat.



    Now, apply this to tma. you learn iron palm, qigong, various kicks, punches, palms, knees, elbows, chin na, head butts, throwing, forms, weapons... how many of those will you master? how many will you be able to use with razor sharp precision at will? Will you ever use all of the techniques you learn? For example, I've never used a tiger claw in a fight or sparring. But yet, I still had to spend time training it. will I ever be a master of it? no, because I don't use it. Not only that, but training it takes away from time I could spend training techniques that I DO use...

    Now, look someone who trains thai boxing and judo... he is WAY more focused in his training in terms of which techniques he learns. While the tma guy is working all of that other stuff, the thai boxer is training the same core strikes.

    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  2. #17

    Thumbs up

    By the way, awesome post, yongchun.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  3. #18
    Originally posted by sihing
    I tried to tell them that is wasn't like I thought MT was lousy or ineffective but just that IMO WC was more effective, especially for average people. I gave specific reasons why I thought ...
    What are the specific reasons you find WC to be more effective for the average person?

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Victoria, B.C., Canada
    Posts
    788
    For one on one fighting, Thai boxing might be more effective and easier to learn. This guy that taught the seminar showed the main weapons of punch, roundkick, straight kick, elbow and knee and how to develop each weapon for maximum force delivery, speed and non telegraphic action. Then it's put into a fighting mix. In six months he said most of the high school kids who take it up can fight. He has applied it in the ring and on the street. In one street fight a single punch shattered the guys jaw, nose and teeth. It's gross but he said it sounded like dry wood breaking and luckily the guy didn't die.

    The Latosa Escrima someone showed me (but didn't teach me) also had a similar idea of developing a few very powerful strikes and four block (box blocking) to deal with those strikes. Then it was put into a sparring mix. This guy came number two in Germany one year in stick fighting competition. I think I knew a lot more things than him but couldn't handle anything of his. Really having core skills gets you pretty far.

    We have this Olympic calibre Judo guy who doesn't know that much Wing Chun but his core Judo skills have been transported over to Wing Chun such that he has a very rooted stance, very sensitive hands which sort of smother everything and a couple of strikes. With that he does just fine against people with many more years in Wing Chun. No one can sweep him off his feet and he can sweep most people off their feet. He is a thin but very strong guy who also does Yoga on the side.

    Perphaps Wing Chun is the same where a small subset can be trained to be very effective. For Karate tournaments one guy was pretty succesful with 7 months of Wing Chun. However he already had an aggressive fighting mentality so one can't always just look at the length of time in an art or give total credit to the art.

    From what I have seen from the Korean Thai teacher six months does more than I have seen in many arts including quickly taught Wing Chun.

    Once someone is a proficient fighter in their art then it's not easy to say what's better anymore since some Wing Chun people have beaten the Thais and so have some SanDa fighters. Perhaps they cheated by becoming very familiar with the Thai training methods first.

    When I see a lot of Wing Chun curriculums, they seem overly complex to me. Some schools have millions of drills and others have very few if any drills. The large programs I think are not necessary for effective fighting. The Hong Kong fighters learned everything in two years or less. Some modern teaching methods drag it out to 15 years or more. I don't know if this produces better fighters? Maybe not because at a certain age a fighter is in his prime. If you add an extra ten or 12 years to that then your are no longer in your physical prime.
    Last edited by YongChun; 11-22-2004 at 07:25 PM.
    Victoria, British Columbia, Wing Chun

  5. #20
    Originally posted by YongChun
    Once someone is a proficient fighter in their art then it's not easy to say what's better anymore since some Wing Chun people have beaten the Thais and so have some SanDa fighters. Perhaps they cheated by becoming very familiar with the Thai training methods first.
    In that case, you've done a fair bit of cheating yourself by having the seminar.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Victoria, B.C., Canada
    Posts
    788
    Originally posted by Edmund
    In that case, you've done a fair bit of cheating yourself by having the seminar.
    Ok, I'm guilty spying on them.

    Ray
    Victoria, British Columbia, Wing Chun

  7. #22
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Thunder Bay, Ontario
    Posts
    2,164
    Originally posted by Knifefighter
    What are the specific reasons you find WC to be more effective for the average person?
    1) Easy to learn
    2) Simplicity in Technique and Concept
    3) Economy of Motion, efficiency in everything one learns
    4) Practical fighting Philosophy based on reality based situations
    5) Effective fighting Techniques that can be used by the able bodied and enabled bodied. Wing Chun transcends the limitations of each individual
    6) Wing Chun can work for everyone equally
    7) Relies more on skill attributes(timing, perception/sensitivity abilities, distance control) rather than physical attributes like speed, strength or stamina (although these things are needed to perform the movements WC does not rely on them to the same high degree as MT, everyone needs these things, but some arts rely on them more)

    Now please everyone, feel free to pick apart each and every one of these listed reasons, as I know you will do diligently from previous posts of Wing Chun advantages on a Wing Chun forum, lol.


    James

  8. #23
    All of those things are present in muay thai. In addition, if you think they don't use timing, distance or sensitivity, you know nothing about thai boxing...

    for number 4, what are these reality based situations? whose experiences are they based upon?
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  9. #24
    Originally posted by YongChun
    Ok, I'm guilty spying on them.

    Ray
    Not really spying if you just ask them to give you a seminar!

    It's funny what people have picked up and commented on from your notes.

    Most of the notes were about technique and fighting theory and had nothing to do with how tough or conditioned they are. Yet a lot of people are discussing conditioning as if that was the main part of Muay Thai.

    Conditioning is only one aspect, and it's OTHER things like when to use a particular technique, how to defend and hold a guarding position, the mechanics of each strike, how they practice the SKILLS etc. that also make Muay Thai effective. This is the art aspect that can be taught to anybody, not just fit young people.

    "Pride and K1" (brought up by sihing) are not particularly fantastic examples of Muay Thai. Because of the rules and the average size and background of the fighters, it's not quite the same style as what you see in Thailand.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Western NY, USA
    Posts
    1,672
    Originally posted by SevenStar
    All of those things are present in muay thai. In addition, if you think they don't use timing, distance or sensitivity, you know nothing about thai boxing...
    Re points 5 - 7. Thai Boxing would not work equally well for me. I don't have the orthopedic structure to tolerate that kind of training.

    Regards,
    - Kathy Jo

  11. #26
    We generally dont break through the same old same old posts-just restate them. So this too is same old WC POV. I dont feel the slightest need to justify wing chun to non wing chunners on a wing on what is labelled as a wing chun list. Comments in brackets follow:
    ---------------------------------------
    Originally posted by SevenStar
    All of those things are present in muay thai. In addition, if you think they don't use timing, distance or sensitivity, you know nothing about thai boxing...
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ((Of course MT folks use distancing, timing and sensitivity- most skilled activity uses those qualities. But those qualities are function and art specific in the details. Sensitivity to what? What kinds of timing? Distance relative to what? Good wing chun develops those things for wing chun strategy and tactics.))
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Re points 5 - 7. Thai Boxing would not work equally well for me. I don't have the orthopedic structure to tolerate that kind of training.

    Regards,
    - Kathy Jo
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ((One of the nice things about wing chun is it's versatility and adaptability...depending on body type, size, age, physical strengths and weaknesses. Paul Lam ( a student of Leung Shun)
    was a pretty good fighter. Apart from Lee Sing he was one of the first to introduce wing chun in the UK. He had polio asa kid and had below average legs- but he got his rooting and mobility down enough and developed great and powerful wing chun hand usage in dealing with wing chun and non wing chun folks he encountered)).))

  12. #27
    Originally posted by kj
    Re points 5 - 7. Thai Boxing would not work equally well for me. I don't have the orthopedic structure to tolerate that kind of training.

    Regards,
    - Kathy Jo
    there is a guy in our class who has plantar's fasciitis (sp?) and he is able to train occasionally. He does bjj as well. bjj is MUCH easier on his feet, but does it anyway.

    I have a naturally twisted spine - my right side is further forward than my left. You can't look at me and tell, but it shows on x ray.

    we've got several women in the class, one of which has back probs, if I'm not mistaken.

    On an interesting and related note, a CMA acquaintance of mine (yes, he trains WC) told me that he hasn't been able to train as much recently because he was getting old...his previous injuries from training are getting to him. The only MA he's done are longfist and WC, not counting the boxing he did when he ws 14.

    Out of curiousity though, what condition do you have?
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    South of San Francisco
    Posts
    79
    Ray,

    Nice write up.

    From what you have seen what makes the MT strikes so much stronger than the WC ones (or any other styles for that matter)? Also, given that they hit harder do they lose anything in speed or control?
    Timing is Everything,

    Ty

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Western NY, USA
    Posts
    1,672
    Originally posted by SevenStar
    there is a guy in our class who has plantar's fasciitis (sp?) and he is able to train occasionally. He does bjj as well. bjj is MUCH easier on his feet, but does it anyway.

    I have a naturally twisted spine - my right side is further forward than my left. You can't look at me and tell, but it shows on x ray.

    we've got several women in the class, one of which has back probs, if I'm not mistaken.

    On an interesting and related note, a CMA acquaintance of mine (yes, he trains WC) told me that he hasn't been able to train as much recently because he was getting old...his previous injuries from training are getting to him. The only MA he's done are longfist and WC, not counting the boxing he did when he ws 14.

    Out of curiousity though, what condition do you have?
    Thanks for the anecdotes, Sevenstar. Those folks you described have my respect and kudos for working through and around their constraints, as do those who have the willingness and patience to work with them. I hope they can continue to make the right balances in order to both benefit from and enjoy their work for years to come.

    Not to belabor my personal challenges, and distinctly not seeking therapy here; rather to offer a good faith answer to your good faith question. Perhaps this may also help to illustrate that there are sometimes legitimate physical constraints which, combined with other reasons, support the case for choice and variety in training methods.

    In my particular case, I have a number of genetic and developmental "anomalies"(e.g., ligament laxity, os acromiale, and Spondylolisthesis), some of which have contributed to other problems and symptoms including but not exclusive to: chronic bursitis of the shoulders, excessive movement in the iliosacral joint , sciatica, tendonitis, and yes, plantar faciitis. I also have genetic propensity for osteoarthritis in various joints; the worst of which is my knees which are presently on the verge of requiring replacement in keeping with both my maternal and paternal ascendants. I have encountered many of these symptoms and problems throughout my adult life, they just tend to worsen over time; some of them have been problematic since early childhood, most notably the knee problems. I was fortunate to have had a surgical procedure successfully performed to correct a very painful case of hallux rigidus, which dramatically improved my posture, gait and stance. I have also had multiple arthroscopies of the knees including partial meniscectomies and general "cleaning" which, along with a variety of other therapies have helped keep me reasonably functional to this point.

    Oh yeah, I have carpal tunnel syndrome and TMJ too, LOL.

    Despite all of this, I am reasonably functional. I just "break" rather easily if not judicious in my work. But we all have some achilles heel. Lest my potential enemies presume too much, none of this means I won't kick someone good if I sincerely need to! Given that I must use care in "spending" what little remains of my knees (and other parts), for the time being at least, it just means I will be rather selective about whom to kick, and when.

    I gave serious consideration to these and numerous other factors when I evaluated my martial arts options some years ago. It was no accident that I elected to give Wing Chun a try.

    This may also help to explain in part why I often think to question many dogmatic assertions, assumptions and "shoulds."

    Regards,
    - Kathy Jo

  15. #30
    Originally posted by kj
    In my particular case, I have a number of genetic and developmental "anomalies"(e.g., ligament laxity...
    You would smoke in BJJ. Hyperflexible people give us normal range of motion people fits- it's hard to submit them, you can't pass their guards, and they are always getting your back and choking you out.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •