Tai Chi wins in MMA

[rogue]

But where does someone see that form of WC? Sihing you're the one saying that WC is the best. Not just a good art but the best. People want something to back that statement up.

Are those mullets I see?

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun

I realize that this exchange was much earlier in the thread - but I've really got to comment on this.

First of all...next May will be 30 years that I'm doing Wing Chun...but I've got to agree with SevenStar in just about everything that went on in this exchange with James (sihing)...especially this last part:

"yes, they can. At my club, you will train as if you have an upcoming fight - whether you fight or not, you will be in competition shape and will have the skill development to go with it. IME, this is how sport fighting clubs in general are." (Sevenstar)

And this is the key to the whole exchange...by his own admission James doesn't engage in hard contact sparring/training anymore - which is why he's just not "getting it".

And what's it?

Wing Chun is great stuff...but without that kind of hard training on a frequent basis against skilled fighters who can really use some of the non-wing chun moves that SevenStar has alluded to...James will never be adequately exposed to what's out there today; because if he were...he'd know that it's wise to do some crosstraining in a grappling art.

This is not about individual assets and abilities. I've always tried to talk about Wing Chun as a art on it's own, in comparison to other arts. All arts have effective fighters that can make their systems work. I've got no problems there. My point is always about effectiveness of movements and how well can average people with average time commitments to MA training apply what they learn, not grand champs of international events.

I always tell new students that they may not be the best fighter but they will not make it easy for any one of MA ability that attacks them or anyone else for that matter. And if a little more training is all it takes to beat them then that is a easy process to complete, and one I would rather complete than learning a whole new set of MA techniques to overcome the "modern day Martial Artist".. Once again it is all there in the system for the taking.. That's it for me on this thread..


James

[sihing]

Originally posted by rogue
But where does someone see that form of WC? Sihing you're the one saying that WC is the best. Not just a good art but the best. People want something to back that statement up.

Are those mullets I see?

Best is subjective. Best for what? Effective is more applicable. If you don't think what your studying now is the most effective, why do you continue to study it? It's a free country, and no one is keeping anyone from leaving there kwoon. So therefore, all that study what they do believe the same, otherwise they would learn it. Paul Vunak obviously believes what he does it the most effective, othewise he would not advocate/teach what he does, no different with my statement. Krav Maga does the same in Calgary and I have no need to ask them to back it up. I'm secure in my knowledge and only people with weak ego's need to do these things. If you don't believe what I say then so be it, ignore all posts by me. There's only so much I can explain on a internet forum, sooner or later if you want to know why I feel the way I do then you will have to learn the same methods as I and experience the same things.

James

P.S. Yes, I guess that's a mullet for me, but that was the style of the time(early 90's). No big deal, all of us I have changed fashions over the years, so to try and make silly comments like mullets just shows immaturity.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
And speaking of WC's over-reliance on theory, all one has to do is visit the WC forum to see this in action. 90% of the stuff is about theory. There are pages and pages of theoretical discussion on energy generation, center line theory, blind side theory, structural theory, Steiner point triangular theory, internal energy generation theories, arguments about what is the correct weight distribution, how high to raise the bong sao, whose lineage is better or more real, whether or not chi sao is sparring, etc, etc, ad naseum.

And speaking of sparring, you guys are so off the deep end on theory that it becomes a major project to actually have WC guys think about sparring other WC people. First you have pages and pages of discussion on the theoretical implications of sparring with each other in the first place. And after all that, does anyone get together to spar? No, you then come up with a 10 point theoretical proposal on the theory of WC guys getting together with other WC guys to think about theoretically sparring with each other sometime and someplace in the future.

Dayum.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
This is not about individual assets and abilities. I've always tried to talk about Wing Chun as a art on it's own, in comparison to other arts. All arts have effective fighters that can make their systems work. I've got no problems there. My point is always about effectiveness of movements and how well can average people with average time commitments to MA training apply what they learn, not grand champs of international events.

you're right, it's not about individual assets. Look at the style as a whole. When people think muay thai, what do they expect? When people think WC, what do they expect? Now, let's think about why this is so...


And if a little more training is all it takes to beat them then that is a easy process to complete, and one I would rather complete than learning a whole new set of MA techniques to overcome the "modern day Martial Artist".. Once again it is all there in the system for the taking..


Tunnel vision...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
Best is subjective. Best for what? Effective is more applicable.

Originally posted by sihing

I have no problem saying that IMO WING CHUN IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE MA IN THE WORLD

If you don't think what your studying now is the most effective, why do you continue to study it? It's a free country, and no one is keeping anyone from leaving there kwoon.

because I like it. Actually, I'd be willing to bet that many MA don't study their given art because they think it's the "most effective"

[sihing]

Originally posted by SevenStar
If you don't think what your studying now is the most effective, why do you continue to study it? It's a free country, and no one is keeping anyone from leaving there kwoon.

because I like it. Actually, I'd be willing to bet that many MA don't study their given art because they think it's the "most effective"

[/QUOTE]

Interesting you say that Sevenstar. A Husband and Wife team just joined the school and I was talking with the wife today, who has a black belt in TKD, and I asked why she stopped training in that art. She said "It wasn't very practical for self-defense", but I guess in your eyes, and lots here that's the rare exception rather than the norm, right?

James

[Baji Brad]

I'd say so.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"This is not about individual assets and abilities. I've always tried to talk about Wing Chun as a art on it's own, in comparison to other arts." (sihing)


On the contrary...it most certainly is about individual assets and liabilities.

And your lack of assets (ie. - hard sparring in general and work against skilled non-WC fighting in particular)...

is becoming a liability...(to the rest of the WC people who DO HAVE the experience - and who become guilty by association).

Guilty by association in what regard?

In regard to your claims.

You can "talk"...but you have no right to BRAG about Wing Chun as an art on its own, in comparison to other arts...WHEN YOU DON'T DO ANY HARD SPARRING COMPARISONS.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"This is not about individual assets and abilities. I've always tried to talk about Wing Chun as a art on it's own, in comparison to other arts." (sihing)


On the contrary...it most certainly is about individual assets and liabilities.

And your lack of assets (ie. - hard sparring in general and work against skilled non-WC fighting in particular)...

is becoming a liability...(to the rest of the WC people who DO HAVE the experience - and who become guilty by association since they also do WC).

Guilty by association in what regard?

In regard to your claims.

You can "talk"...but you have no right to BRAG about Wing Chun as an art on its own, in comparison to other arts...WHEN YOU DON'T DO ANY HARD SPARRING COMPARISONS.

Then everything you say is strictly in regards to your own ability, and means nothing to someone else, because their abilities are different from your own. Therefore you are unable to teach anything to anyone because again your ability is different from others. This makes no sense...

In the highest levels of achievement in anything, sport, business, life or MA, yes individual attributes will make a difference. Ali wasn't Ali just because he knew the basics of boxing but he added his own uniqueness to it, and fortunately for him he had allot of uniqueness to add. Victor, your WC and my WC are different because we have transcended the art and have added our own uniqueness to it. My natural gifts/attributes have been added to my WC, as yours have to your WC, but to pass it on to others we have to teach them the core principals and concepts, as well as core techniques to each and all in their original form. The question is how effective is this "original form" or foundation as some like to say. Regardless of whether or not I am in tiptop condition or training with others now in present time, I still have the basics in me and always will, as well as the knowledge of what I have learned in the past from interactions with others. If one does what you advocate then the process is endless, and one should be prepared for a lifetime of training and searching for answers to the next obstacle or art to come along in MA. Principals and concepts are universal, training methods and adaptation of those core principals will adjust to the ever-increasing abilities of today's fighters and situations. Keep our heads in the sand for 10yrs and you will be behind the times, but learn about other arts strengths and weaknesses and the WC will be fine for future generations to come.

If your so worried about the "guilty by association" and that I am such a bad representative, then post some video of yourself, sparring, teaching, practicing whatever and we will see what you have to offer also. I've already done so, and can show more if needed that reflect my abilities...


James

[omarthefish]

Wow.... .....you've trancended the art.....

That's awsome dude!

lol

Originally posted by sihing

Interesting you say that Sevenstar. A Husband and Wife team just joined the school and I was talking with the wife today, who has a black belt in TKD, and I asked why she stopped training in that art. She said "It wasn't very practical for self-defense", but I guess in your eyes, and lots here that's the rare exception rather than the norm, right?

James [/B][/QUOTE]

This is such such a retarded and misplaced counter-example it just takes my breath away.

1. "just joined the school..." - they could very well make the same exact conclusion about WC as they did about TKD. Will see what happens in a few months.

2. Irrelevent anyways. There are so many many miles...nay...lightyears of distance between "not very practical for self defense" and "the best art there is".

2a. Even if "practical for self defense" IS an absolute must...which it OFTEN isn't...there are ENDLESS lists of styles which meet that rather basic requirement.

Check into a capoera school and see how many people are worried about self defense. Same thing for a class in floor gymnastics..er.....competition standardized wushu. How about the "for health only" Taiji crowd? What about people who really want to have ripped abs but find weight training, running laps and calisthenics as boring as watching paint dry. What about people who really really love full contact competition? What about people who just want a hobby? What about those of us who are not prepared to quit their job move half way around the world and do whatever it takes to find the best style but would rather just see what't in their area?

The list goes on and on.

Knifefighter,

**** that summary on the previous page was funny.

This guy is just asking for a televised beatdown. ...I gotta check out this mullet.

[omarthefish]

Nice mullet.

This little excerpt is a gem though:

William Cheung has even said, "In my career I have had two exceptional students and they both have the same initials. One is no longer with us and one is standing right over there. I only wish that when I was a student I had a teacher like him." (referring to Bruce Lee (deceased) and Brian Lewadny)

Now Bruce Lee was a student of William Cheung!?!

Last I checked the little dragon was one of Yip Man's students and Cheung was that guy who got punked out by Bozetepe 20 years ago. Jeeesh. No wonder people make fun on WC.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
Then everything you say is strictly in regards to your own ability, and means nothing to someone else, because their abilities are different from your own. Therefore you are unable to teach anything to anyone because again your ability is different from others. This makes no sense...

That's not what he's saying, Even though you are teaching them based on their experiences, you still must experience things for yourself in order to fully understand them. A coach can spend years telling a fighter what it's like to be in the ring, but until the fighter gets in for himself, he'll never really know. An instructor can tell a fighter what it's like to be in a streetfight involving multiple opponents, but until the student has done it (and hopefully he won't have to) He will never truly know what it's like.

To quote the movie "the perfect weapon":

"I have shown you the dragon, but you have not seen him"


Keep our heads in the sand for 10yrs and you will be behind the times, but learn about other arts strengths and weaknesses and the WC will be fine for future generations to come.

This I agree with. I don't think that video tape instruction counts though.

[rogue]

If you don't think what your studying now is the most effective, why do you continue to study it?

Using Vunak is a bad example since the guy doesn't use any one art exclusivly. Every guy that I've met that knows what they were talking about never would say what they did as their main art was the most effective. That includes traditional martial artists to special ops. All have a base style that they like and gets them a certain percentage of effectivness and then they've filled the holes in that base with other arts. Matter of fact they use other arts to find the holes in what they do. I think WC is a great base art but to think it's going to make you 100% effective martial artists is just silly. But some people like drinking the koolaid.

Wearing a mullet at any point in ones life shows bad judgement.

[sihing]

Originally posted by rogue
Using Vunak is a bad example since the guy doesn't use any one art exclusivly. Every guy that I've met that knows what they were talking about never would say what they did as their main art was the most effective. That includes traditional martial artists to special ops. All have a base style that they like and gets them a certain percentage of effectivness and then they've filled the holes in that base with other arts. Matter of fact they use other arts to find the holes in what they do. I think WC is a great base art but to think it's going to make you 100% effective martial artists is just silly. But some people like drinking the koolaid.

Wearing a mullet at any point in ones life shows bad judgement.

It wasn't about using one art exclusively, the example of Vunak is his belief in his methods, and how effective he believes they are. Whether he learns 100 arts and combines them or finds all he needs in one art, he believes his method is the most effective, otherwise he would continue to add on to it. He's not concerned about how the art looks to others or whether or not he enjoy's the training in that particular art (like some on here) but he's totally into street effectiveness. Does he respect other Martial Arts methods? Yes I would think so, as do I. Doesn't matter who I would be facing in a fight, I would respect their method and not be over confident, that's the first rule, respect yourself and your opponent. Even Vunak's teacher Dan Inosanto called one man the deadliest fighter around back in the late 80' & 90's, and was a practiticoner of one system, Pentjak Serak Silat, Paul De Thouars. I read the mag article and ordered some tapes of the system described and found out for myself as best I could (living thousands of miles away from where Inosanto and De Thouras live, it was out of the question to visit them) about the system in question. I didn't put them down for their belief's.

Rogue,
Can't you do any better than pick on my old mullet? You've been around for long long while, what else do you have issue with? At least our website works....

James