Tai Chi wins in MMA

[Chang Style Novice]

Shooter - I don't mean to be sarcastic. I know you've posted a lot, but I don't remember this particular buzzword, and I haven't encountered it from my teacher either.

A link to an older explanation would be fine.

[Shooter]

Oh don't you worry, CSN. That particular buzzword will make its way into the vernacular of lots of tjq people soon enough.

But seriously, I'm just maing that 5-steps stuff up. I didn't really have a teacher, so I have to fill the gaps with my own imagination.

Nobody knows much about the 5-steps because they aren't mentioned in the classics....but then again, they are. The classics scream 5-steps.

[Mr Punch]

Hi Shooter.

By all accounts you re a good fighter who uses tai chi. Fair enough.

But I ve been on this board for about four years and I don t remember you ever posting anything in details about the Five Steps. I always read your posts with interest cos you often have useful things to say, and my ears ***** up when you mention the Five Steps... ahh, at last we get treated to what it is!

Then you re always like, ah, you wouldn t understand, or it would cause too much trouble or or whatever...

so when is the soon enough in 'That particular buzzword will make its way into the vernacular of lots of tjq people soon enough.' and by what means... since you aint talking? Osmosis?!

[Mr Punch]

BTW Iron, you're forgetting that there's a hell of a lot of crossover in martial techs, given that there are only so mant ways a body can move.

So, if it looks like boxing to you (who doesn't do tai chi) yet the practitioner can explain every move in tai chi terms, blow by blow through the match... then it's probably tai chi, or he's a **** good faker!

In this case, Sami whojamaflip hasn't explained every move, but he says he does tai chi. Like I said, what's he got to gain by lying?

The more valid points are, he got his ass whooped, failed to back up his idea that he didn't need ground principles, and won by accident and he's calling it tai chi! But then like Seven and Liokault and many others are saying, he's still training essentially tai chi principles and he's fighting MMA tournaments which is more than most people on this board (myself included).

[scotty1]

Iron you're on the wrong track about what tai chi should look like.

Different peoples tai chi is going to look different. With regard to punching - there are surely just non-effective and effective ways to punch, boxers, tai chi people, whatever, they're going to look pretty similar.

The difference should be in the tactics. The tai chi boxer should be sticking and following with his punches, perhaps not bringing them back like a boxer might. But then, don;t some boxers do that? Punch from an extended position? So are they doing tai chi?

The difference is in what is emphasised in training, and the training method. Just because the end result looks similar doesn't mean the one has just stolen the technique from the other.

You cannot perform applications from the form in as crisp a manner as they are in the form. It might look really scrappy. That's the nature of fighting isn't it?

But I agree that a tai chi fighter should have certain characteristics of movement and strategies/tactics, as well as certain techniques that are reciognisibly 'tai chi'.

And I personally don't think it should take years to learn to fight using tai chi. In fact it could be pretty quick dam quick.

[Becca]

Originally posted by IronFist
I didn't really read this thread.

Does what he does look like Tai Chi? Cuz you could be a boxer or shuai jiao guy and say you do Tai Chi but that doesn't make it Tai Chi.

And don't start with the "well, what if the boxer uses Tai Chi principles..." If he's in a boxing stance, throwing boxing punches, he's using boxing principles. If they happen to coincidentally be the same as Tai Chi principles, that's great. But if they're not exclusive to Tai Chi they don't count as "Tai Chi princples."

Some confusion reigned, and we saw blood- but unexpectedly, the blood belonged to Abdul. Berik had elbowed him above the eye while on his back in guard, and re-opened an old gash.

This stament and the details of the first time he was dropped tell me that he was using Tai Chi. The only other art I know of that can slip in on you like that is Kempo. Flowing movements that go along with the aggressor untill he/shi/it is caught be good and totally unaware untill too **** late. Yep. That's Tai Chi in a fight.

late addition...

But I ve been on this board for about four years and I don t remember you ever posting anything in details about the Five Steps. I always read your posts with interest cos you often have useful things to say, and my ears ***** up when you mention the Five Steps... ahh, at last we get treated to what it is!

Five steps is in reference to the five levels of mental preperation.
They are also incorperated in many other TCMA, but are not as stressed, if stressed at all. in Pai Lum, they are as follows:

strong mind > concentration > controll > discipline > self dicipline

This is not nesissarily how other arts phrase it, but in essence, it is the same.

[scotty1]

Interesting definition of the 5 steps Becca.

In tai chi they're basically directions, I think.

however Bruce has a differnet definition again, but won't tell anyone.

[Becca]

In tai chi they're basically directions, I think.

Those five steps I listed are more than just the words used to describe them. Call'em directions, or what have you. But they have a goal, and that basiclly is to get your mind to think and respond in a spacific way. I discovered the connection between Pai Lum's "5 levels of Meditation" and Tai Chi's 5 steps by accident... I asked an off the wall question of a Sifu and that was the answer I got.

[Mr Punch]

Cheers Becca, but I think Shooter is talking about physical principles. almost certain from the veiled references he makes. Let's see shall we, whenever he gets back to us...

[Ray Pina]

Knifefighter, I'm thinking you're probbaly not the regular TMA, certainly not doing Cloud Hands in the park in a pink silk robe.

....

Delibandit:

I understand what you're saying, really I do. But presently, BJJ is proving that it can turn out fighters, where the average purple belt will put a hurting on a 5 to even 10 year taiji player. I'm talking averages here. I know my teacher and his disciples can use their taiji, though there is a lot in there (Hsing-I, Ba Gua, weapons theory, etc), but you just don't see a lot of taiji guys out there. Hell, you don't see a lot of internal guys out there.

In NY I can only think of Mr. CC Chen's school (Max and Tiffany), Novell Bell (Black Taoist)'s crew and my master, Mr. David Bond Chan. These schools do fight, probbaly more so than most external traditional styles in the area.

[Kaitain(UK)]

Well, given that I believe Bruce has something to say about things like the 5-steps, I actually have a record of what has been said in the past - it's part of my recommended reading I just dont get all of it yet:

5-steps has nothing to do with footwork per se. It shows basic ignorance when people start discussing 5-steps as footwork. You use footwork to affect 5-steps method, but footwork is something other than 5-steps.

5-steps as a principle represents TCC's positional strategies.

5-steps as a concept represents the relational chemistry 2 or more people form in struggle and violent conflict.

5-steps are the means by which players learn to stick, follow, link, and adhere under pressure

This was all in a very long thread on the neija forum a fair while ago, so i hope Bruce doesn't mind me putting some of it here.

Regards,

Paul

[Liokault]

Fight report from Neil Rosak

"Well - wasn't quite how I saw it, or many others who were there.
Abdul mohammed is the Cage Warriors champion and so they like to
hype him up a bit and don't like it when he loses on another show I
guess.

It was a foregone conclusion that he would get the take down (he is
ridiculously strong and a champion wrestler) - and he did, twice.
First time sami very easily regained guard and then very easily
stood up again.Then put some good knee strikes in.

Next time he got it Sami again took guard very easily after getting
caught near the fence.
The cuts were caused by about seven or so unanswered elbow shots
from Sami in the bottom position to his temple and face - which he
did not like at all. The guy may cut easily but then they were very
good elbows.


A Champion Olympic wrestler who is wider than he is tall will
inevitably get a takedown - but he inflicted no damage at all and
lost the dominant position easily, and was hit a lot in the face in
the process by elbows. Sami would rather knock him out but everyone
was very happy with his performance considering the last time he was
on the ground was his last cage fight some months back. He does no
groundfighting at all to prepare for these events.
Abdul was very smart not to stand with Sami. He used his awesome
wresling skills to pull off some wild takedowns, but he did not
dominate the fight and made lots of mistakes.
I am pretty sure that Sami would have caught him with something else
if the cut didn't open. The cagewarriors report is definately off
key.

Sami took a fight agaisnt possibly the top welterweight in the UK at
very short notice and did very well - tough times are what cage
fighting is about, especially if you fight the top guys like Abdul.A
fight agaisnt him is never going to go all your way - though Sami
sustained far less punishment in this bout than he has in any other
cage fight.
Sami could prepare better for fights sometimes but he was excellent
this time against an incredibly powerful opponent who has
thouroughly dominated other opponents. "

[scotty1]

Paul, I don't get it either.

I would certainly like to be shown what it is though.

Maybe one day on holiday to Canada...


Still the impression I get is that it's not just footwork, but directional forces that neutralise other directional forces?

Actually isn't that kind of a given? Or not?

Dunno, it's the end of a long day... GAAAAH!

[Kaitain(UK)]

Well my family are all in Calgary so I could pretend Im going to visit them

It may be like many things in MA, in that it develops without you realising it (through correct repetition of forms) - once it's pointed out then you can deliberately cultivate it. The problem with that route is that something can become corrupted through ignorance.

delibandit - how long have you trained? your profile says 2 months. If that's the case then you cant possibly have any practical ability to exhibit what you're talking about. Nor are you qualified to make sweeping statements about what other people have experienced.

[scotty1]

Holy (rap I didn't realise that.

And I still maintain it doesn't take 10, or even 5 years to become proficient through tai chi.