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Thread: Wing Chun & Anti Grappling

  1. #1
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    Wing Chun & Anti Grappling

    For the purposes of analysis, Grappling (and thus Anti grappling) can be divided into two parts – clinch (stand up) and ground fighting.

    In terms of the clinch

    there are a number of wing chun strategies & techniques that should be familiar to anyone who knows the system (different interpretations of the forms notwithstanding) and which can be used to counter various different techniques from the clinch.

    For example

    In Slt there is;

    defence against rear bear hug with double overhooks (raising rear elbows and groin grab/strike)
    defence against cross arm wrist grab (turn hand palm up and pak sau the elbow of the hand that is grabbing)
    defence against half nelson (straighten arm and turn to face opponent)

    In chum kiu there is;

    Defence against front bear hug with double underhooks (double eye gouge)
    Defence against choke/lapel grab (tok and jut sau together on the elbow of their extended arm.
    Defence against same arm wrist grab (turn hand so blade of forearm is next to where their thumb and finger meet and turn and low bong sau to break free.

    In Bil Gee there is;

    Defence against double wrist grab (Arcing Downwards elbow)

    And in the Dummy there is;

    Defence against double neck tie (double high palms under their chin)
    Defence against double neck tie and knee (Double low palms on their hips)
    Defence against take down attempts (neck grab and pull)

    These can all be characterised as specifically 'anti grappling' techniques. This is not to say of course that the basic wing chun body mechanics and concepts cannot be used to counter a grappler - they can. I have highlighted these anti grappling techniques purely because they are easy to identify as such.

    In terms of the ground

    Since the Wing chun fighter is not looking to go to the ground (in accordance with the maxim- do not try and grapple a grappler) if for whatever reason he does end up there (for e.g. if his normally impecable clinch skills have, in this instance failed him, or he has tripped/slipped or he was attacked by surprise) he will in all likelihood be the man on the bottom.

    Now there are two variables for the man on the bottom – either the opponent will be in your guard i.e. you will be square on to him with your legs in front of him (which is, if not a ‘neutral’ position then certainly the best of the bad positions for the man on the bottom qua man on the bottom, since it affords him the most chance to sweep, submit, counter strike or escape from the man on top)

    Or alternatively the opponent will already be past your guard/legs and will have your flank. In this case the WC player will only have a small window (if at all) to either replace the guard (i.e. to square up) or to stand back up. Otherwise the grappler will be on top of him.

    Now if this happens (that is, if the grappler is on top having passed the bottom mans guard) two further variables come into play – space and weight. The top man (grapplers) focus will be on minimising space and maximising weight on the bottom man. He may then strike, submit or move to a better position as he wishes. Thus to escape, the man on the bottom needs to do the polar opposite from the man on the top i.e. to maximise the space between them and to minimise the weight on him.

    Before we address the best way to do that though there are two alternative options to escaping in this scenario that merit discussion –

    Firstly there is the strategy of striking from the bottom

    While this may seem at first blush to be a viable option, there are a number of problems associated with it. These are:

    -That any punches thrown will be all arm punches (i.e. with no Bodyweight /Gravity behind them and hence will lack power)
    -That there is not sufficient room to adequately chamber and recycle them
    -That one is not able to actually reach the desired target in the case of the mount or rear mount.

    Perhaps a more plausible solution would be to attack vulnerable targets – but then if the grappler is good he can protect these spots, for e.g. by burying his head to negate biting/eye gouging and keeping his hips low to avoid groin grabbing etc. Consequently it is perhaps unwise to rely on this strategy alone.

    The best solution to the space/weight problem, then, is exactly what a grappler would use viz. A combination of bridging (arching the back and pushing up with the hips) and shrimping (turning onto your side and scooting your hips away from the man on top). These two things together, combined with a few other details depending on the context (like sealing off/trapping a side when bridging to prevent the top guy from posting an arm or leg thereby regaining his balance and thus preventing the escape) will get the man on the bottom (provided he applies them correctly) out of 99 % of top pins.

    So, having made space and turning to face his opponent, he has now replaced the guard. Here he has a number of options. He can submit, strike, sweep or escape.

    Now to go for a submission is to start grappling with a grappler. Moreover a failed submission attempt (such as a triangle or armbar) may result in ones guard being passed.

    Another possibility is a sweep. However IME sweeps again involve grappling and are made considerably more difficult when the opponent doesn’t wear a Gi or heavy clothing (though not impossible – the double ankle pick when he stands up in your guard is equally effective in either case).

    This leaves striking or escaping. Striking while feasible is not ideal: it is better used as a prelude to an escape. Heels on hips, pushing off and then standing up (correctly) works well if the guy is sitting back. Alternatively, if he is heavy on you you can pull him down and to the right (double handed lap sau) and shrimp your hips out to the left. This will allow you to take the back and thus stand up easily. these are just two high % methods of escape- there are of course others.

    To summarise then,

    The WC man wants, as a default strategy, to stay on his feet. Thus if he does go to the ground it will be against his will and is likely to involve being on the bottom. If he is on the bottom he is vulnerable to strikes and submissions and his ability to strike (his preferred method of attack) will be compromised. Thus he needs to escape from the bottom as a matter of priority.
    To do this he needs to know and be able to apply a handful of fundamental techniques: Bridging, shrimping, how to trap/seal off a side (to prevent them posting a leg/arm to regain their base when sweeping or escaping) and how to block/frustrate submissions whilst trying to escape– arm bar/triangle, RNC etc.

    Moreover its not really a question of whether historically Wing chun does or does not have these things– more that even if it does they need to be trained against a skilled resisting partner in the context in question. In other words it is probably unwise to think that there will be a complete and unproblematic crossover of skill sets from stand up to the ground and that therefore one does not need to devote training time to practicing on the ground (especially from the bottom).

    Of course there are WC Principles that certainly do cross over to the ground. These include:

    - Seek the path of least resistance (don’t fight force with force)
    - Keep facing the centreline (don’t let your opponent outflank you)
    - Hit the nearest target with the nearest weapon.

    But IMO there is sufficient difference to warrant training this range of combat in its own right. In doing so one is formulating a contingency plan - a sensible strategy in many walks of life


    To be continued…………….
    Last edited by Nick Forrer; 11-29-2004 at 12:42 PM.
    'In the woods there is always a sound...In the city aways a reflection.'

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  2. #2
    Many concepts are fairly broad in application

    Many training sessions are not

  3. #3
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    Good stuff Nick. I agree with you totally regarding the ground escapes.

    On the weekend I was showing a friend's KF students who knew no grappling basic escapes from side control and mount, just enough to get to something approximating an open guard. I also showed them how to stand up in base quickly and safely.

    My suggested strategy for them was to get to a place where they could use their legs to kick/push the guy away, and then create enough space to stand up and either withdraw or engage again from standing.
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  4. #4
    I like this thread !

    Good stuff...Nick Forrer...Andrew Nerlich.

  5. #5
    Good post Nick. I have some additional ideas(mostly about being at the bottom)- but not necessary
    at this time... because yours is a good post.

  6. #6
    Good post Nick. I have some additional ideas(mostly about being at the bottom)- but not necessary
    at this time... because yours is a good post.

  7. #7
    That was a good post Nick and made for an interesting read!!

    Also,changing the subject totally, I stole one of youre lines as it was very well put about differences in pivoting on the WSL forum which if you read no doubt recognised it as youre own words. So a public note of thanks and that i forgot to credit you for that sentance. Hope you dont mind.

    Kev
    It's time to turn it on! This is what i train for, this is where i want to be. Fear is not an option it's time to release the rage!

  8. #8
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    Redundant as it may be, great post, Nick. Looking forward to part 2.

    Regards,
    - kj

  9. #9
    1,hmm,difficult thread this one.in a fight i used judo.i had virtually no time to think:'im being grabbed this way,ill do this'.training also has NONE of the 'oh my god,im in a fight' feeling that many people get when the plop hits the fan.train as hard and as macho as you want,but its simply not the same.in addition,all of what you study may not apply in a real encounter.plus wobbly fight hands.
    however,my suggestion is;udi garami for those grabbed at chi sao range,and osoto gari sweep.the latter i used in a fight and it was instant.terrible world at times.what wing chun gives best,i think, is the bong block.

    2,or, we could all go to www.getoutofthehousemore.com

    Russ.

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    many thanks

    Dear all

    Thanks for the kind words. Part 2 will discuss my encounter with EB anti grappling, some elementary submission counters that everyone should know and some other bits and bobs.

    Pls be patient, it may take a little while....

    Andrew: Yes - what you showed those guys is exactly what im talking about - a simple but effective escape that just needs drilling under pressure.

    Joy C: Feel free to add your own thoughts. Always after other suggestions.

    Kev B: Yes I saw that and wondered if it was my words coming back at me. Anyway you're welcome: no copyright on wing chun!
    'In the woods there is always a sound...In the city aways a reflection.'

    'What about the desert?'

    'You dont want to go into the desert'

    - Spartan

  11. #11
    Just a point to add i have seen on footage Gary Lam make Quan Sau work quite nicely with a lap sau from a double handed wrist grab. I suspect Ernie can explain it better.

    Nick do you know what happened to the review of the emin boztepe seminar you put up i cant see it anywhere??

    Cheers for not sueing me for the loan of the words it took me a while after i wrote that post to remember where i saw it hence the delay in crediting it to you. But im honest so better late than never besides i was struggling to put in better terms myself. Any plans to come back down our neck of the woods in the near future?
    It's time to turn it on! This is what i train for, this is where i want to be. Fear is not an option it's time to release the rage!

  12. #12
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    Originally posted by Kevin Bell
    Just a point to add i have seen on footage Gary Lam make Quan Sau work quite nicely with a lap sau from a double handed wrist grab. I suspect Ernie can explain it better.

    Nick!
    Great post man, I love to see when people travel out of the box and gain new experience then bring it back home to WC, much respect brother and great example

    I had a chance to spend a few minutes with BJJ/WT man from this forum [Dhira]
    This weekend and it was a great experience, first of Dhira is a fantastic coach and he explains things from a wing Chun perspective,

    I was not there for a work out but he was not about to let the chance of having me on a mat with out educating me a bit so next thing I know I’m rolling around getting tied in knots =)

    He commented on many things I did right just from instinct or wing Chun training [of course first thing I did was go for the my dirty tactics biting and hitting the groin] he laughed new to expect that type of behavior from me! And after stopped trying to cheat. I just relaxed and went along for the ride.

    It was a awesome experience, really made me think on a few levels had hip out of range and my center facing also monitor were he was trying to go and be aware of the next route he would take after I defended the first attack line

    Keeping air space [I was on my back the whole time] was the thing that kept me in the game, it was fun and once I stopped my survival tactics and actually let him guide and coach me it was very simple, many skills transferred right over from other training, some in concept others is feeling and position

    I have been on the ground a few times, but always working on my cheat game, this was the first time I just let it be what it was and I learned a lot, if any of you ever has the chance don’t be nervous just get in there and do it, no ego just a learning experience

    Your senses really wake up to! It’s like a big dose of clarity hits you, I can see why many wing Chun people get into this it’s a very mental game

    And we are all mental =)


    Kev,
    The quan from the double wrist grab is a very powerful motion [but in all honesty I have never had a situation when I have had to use it]
    You pull/jut in enough to take the slack out of his arms and lock his elbows and then quan twist lock his center and explode from your stance if all the stars are in alignment he goes flying back, Gary says it can damage or break his elbow, maybe take it with a grain of salt, but great demo thing,
    Could put up a clip if people want to see it but it will take time I’m real busy this week at work
    If the truth hurts , then you will feel the pain

    Do not follow me, because if you do, you will lose both me and yourself....but if you follow yourself, you will find both me and yourself

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  13. #13
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    Originally posted by Kevin Bell
    Just a point to add i have seen on footage Gary Lam make Quan Sau work quite nicely with a lap sau from a double handed wrist grab. I suspect Ernie can explain it better.
    Ive played around with quan sau in this scenario - my training partner used it in a fight against a thai boxer with a head butt.

    Originally posted by Kevin Bell
    Nick do you know what happened to the review of the emin boztepe seminar you put up i cant see it anywhere??
    Ive got it plus a complete write up of the second seminar on file. I may put it up again or i may PM you with it (emphasis on may - I took it down for a reason)

    Originally posted by Kevin Bell
    Cheers for not sueing me for the loan of the words it took me a while after i wrote that post to remember where i saw it hence the delay in crediting it to you. But im honest so better late than never besides i was struggling to put in better terms myself. Any plans to come back down our neck of the woods in the near future?
    I have family in Chicester so will be in that neck of the woods over christmas. I probably wont have time to come to alans though (presumably classes wont be running anyway).
    'In the woods there is always a sound...In the city aways a reflection.'

    'What about the desert?'

    'You dont want to go into the desert'

    - Spartan

  14. #14
    "Nick, do you know what happened to the review of the emin boztepe seminar you put up i cant see it anywhere?? (Kevin Bell)




    "I've got it plus a complete write up of the second seminar on file. I may put it up again or I may PM you with it (emphasis on may - I took it down for a reason)." (Nick Forrer)



    No sweat, Nick.

    I'm serious about that.

    You post it...I'll respect it.

  15. #15
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    Keeping air space [I was on my back the whole time] was the thing that kept me in the game, it was fun and once I stopped my survival tactics and actually let him guide and coach me it was very simple, many skills transferred right over from other training, some in concept others is feeling and position

    I have been on the ground a few times, but always working on my cheat game, this was the first time I just let it be what it was and I learned a lot, if any of you ever has the chance don’t be nervous just get in there and do it, no ego just a learning experience
    I went through that experiences countless times with my Judo coach and his guys!...This is where and when... you learn to move your hips away,control his upper body,move out using his movement (non resistance) etc...The biggest mistake is to extend the arms to create space.I prefer to hold him close and to use the hips (center) to create space and momentum.Basic positions and escapes are good things to know but they come with their own methodology.No need to be an expert submission grappler. BTW,dirty tactics are outlawed in competitions because they work!...The trick is to be really agressive and to do it first!... (out of the ring context of course!)

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