On Teaching- the first lesson

[Ultimatewingchun]

I do similar things to AndrewS - but I do it in reverse.

First lesson starts with learning the first section of SLT (but no more than about 10-15 minutes)...then three very basic stances and basic stepping (completely neutral stance - neutral side (body) stance - front stance...followed by a basic half-step forward from the front stance)...the vertical punch...with some multiple roll (chain) punching...and a basic front kick that comes out of the neutral side stance.

But all the while explaining (especially during the initial SLT) some of the principles of the system (ie.- the centerline, the six gates, the principle of always wanting to use two hands at the same time, etc.)...

then I show some pak sao...then a little pak da (from the neutral stance)...then an actual application of pak da against someone throwing a (very slow) straight punch from a distance - and the new student has to respond with some basic footwork as they step forward from the neutral side stance and counter with pak da.

So it's kind of the reverse of Andrew's approach - but at the end of the day (class)...perhaps it's a similar result:

they've learned how to use at least one technique in a somewhat realistic setting.

[AndrewS]

Hey Victor,

I think the interesting thing I've stumbled across is reverse engineering the form, working mechanics and application first, in order to show context.

I don't buy into teaching slowly or quickly- neither to me is a useful idea. The teaching model I'm looking for is a combination of methods- giving people room to learn on their own in safe application environments of live drilling, ramping contact and variability up and down, while also teaching extremely thoroughly, point by point, constantly building on and reviewing prior material (a learning pattern intrinsic to the system and one of the truly outstanding points of Wing Chun).

Anyway, I'm curious what this guy's form is going to look like when he's through it in a few month. While how a form looks is of little merit, it will be interesting to see the difference between him and someone taught from the choreographed standpoint.

Later,

Andrew

[AndrewS]

Ck,

that seems to be a useful approach to hook people in- give them some application and experience fast in order to give them context, so that they can understand the good stuff about Wing Chun.

Did you find yourself unlearning a lot of mechanics after that year or did your teacher actively guide you away from things that grossly contradicted what you were headed to (and if so, how)?

Andrew

[YongChun]

In my first lesson from Patrick Chow, we stood in the SLT pigeon toe stance and just did the slow part of the Tan sau/Fook sau cycle over and over again for an hour straight. He said this represented 1/4 of the Wing Chun system. All the students except me were Chinese and so they accepted this and I followed along. In the first year only the first third of the form was covered along with single sticking hands, turning, stepping with the punch, double punching to develop power, Pak sau and Lap sau.

In my first lesson from Dr. G.K. Khoe in the Wang Kiu lineage I learned the SLT, the CK and part of the BJ, single sticking hands, rolling hands, Pak sau and Lap sau drills, stepping and turning and various drills. The class was 4 to 5 hours long. I missed the first three months and so just had to jump in the middle of where they were at. There were only ten students. The teacher was trying to give a crash course to cover the entire system in 7 months because he was only in Vancouver for a year and then had to go back to Holland to return two years later. After that he turned the curriculum into a three year program.

In the first lesson I usually play with the student, demonstrate to them the form and explain the key ideas. Then I show them how to stand and punch and to defend against that. When they leave they understand the importance of being rooted and also to be mobile, the importance of the centerline theory, the idea of relaxation, the idea of economy of motion, the straight line concept, the concept of simultaneous attack and defense and the whole feel of it in action. I show the student how his natural fighting actions can be improved in little details everywhere. So after that they can evaluate and compare against anything else they know and decide to take up this art or go somewhere else.

Ray

[Ultimatewingchun]

"In my first lesson from Patrick Chow, we stood in the SLT pigeon toe stance and just did the slow part of the Tan sau/Fook sau cycle over and over again for an hour straight. He said this represented 1/4 of the Wing Chun system. All the students except me were Chinese and so they accepted this and I followed along. In the first year only the first third of the form was covered along with single sticking hands, turning, stepping with the punch, double punching to develop power, Pak sau and Lap sau." (YongChun)


This kind of thing has no place in today's world, imo.

Total waste of the student's time and money.

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"In my first lesson from Patrick Chow, we stood in the SLT pigeon toe stance and just did the slow part of the Tan sau/Fook sau cycle over and over again for an hour straight. He said this represented 1/4 of the Wing Chun system. All the students except me were Chinese and so they accepted this and I followed along. In the first year only the first third of the form was covered along with single sticking hands, turning, stepping with the punch, double punching to develop power, Pak sau and Lap sau." (YongChun)


This kind of thing has no place in today's world, imo.

Total waste of the student's time and money.

IMO,students nowadays want (or need?) to be entertained or they will simply vanish away,as I said earlier.There were benefits with that slow "classical" approach. The foundations were built before the roof and everything was solid before going to the next item.But times change! We have to give them what they want and they want more and faster. This is why I ask my students to do some serious stance practice as homeworks.I used to watch a film or hockey game while standing in YGKYM when I was beginning in Wing Chun *(1),so I ask them to at least try to do something about it.Believe me,I can easily tell witch of my guys do it or not!...IMO,some of the most boring stuff about Wing Chun is most important.

*(1) It is not recommended to practice SLT while having the mind occupied at something else. (IMO)

[AndrewS]

A couple of notes on this:

My argument with the 'classical' approach is that it lacks context for the student and has no empiric validation obviously inherent to it. Lots of people stand in stance for ages; few have a 'root' worth a d*mn.

'Root' is an attribute well worth developing, but standing around hoping it will come is definitely a waste of time. Partner work with direct feedback and increasing pressure builds proper mechanics far faster and more consistantly than just standing. This is my experience.

CK- what qi gong did you learn? Are you learning part of Michael Tse's Yi Chuan/ Wing Chun curriculum? What do you mean by principles of good body mechanics?

Ray- I think I fundamentally disagree with your approach. I hate giving the 'sampler/survery/demo' lesson to people fresh off the street. I find it wastes everyone's time (like the class if there are other people there), puts you in a demeaning 'show and tell' position, and generally doesn't work. My take is that active participation from moment one is the best approach, that way a prospective student can find out if they like doing the work- training.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I hate giving the 'sampler/survery/demo' lesson to people fresh off the street. I find it wastes everyone's time (like the class if there are other people there), puts you in a demeaning 'show and tell' position, and generally doesn't work. My take is that active participation from moment one is the best approach, that way a prospective student can find out if they like doing the work- training." (AndrewS)

I agree with this.

As long as every class is covering something (and hopefully more than just 1 or 2 things) that resemble reality fighting scenarios...then someone watching can get something of a clear picture of what you're offering. But if you're just doing forms, footwork drills, punching/kicking into the air, some dan chi sao - or even some double arm chi sao...

but without a "real-fight" context applied to any of it...so that a visitor can say to himself...'okay - I see how that could work in a real fight situation'...

then he's left to try and make those connections to reality fighting WITHIN HIS OWN MIND...which is too much to ask.

So in this manner you don't have to try and change the class to the demo/sampler thing just because a visitor walked in to watch.

He may not get the "complete overview" of the system the way I just described it (as opposed to the sampler/demo business)...but he won't need one.

He's seen SOMETHING that got his attention.

[AndrewS]

CK,

'Root', 'peng', and Feldenkrais and Alexander technique are not the same thing.

[Sigman!Sigman!Sigman!] >:->>>

The body mechanics of Wing Chun are not the same as those of the neijia, though we have some commonalities. I ain't looking to MJ or Tyson to teach me Wing Chun, though I'll take some inspiration from their rather inspired motion.

Do the Guo Lao people do standing practice? 'Cos they have no Siu Nim Tao. What is the basis of your claim that you won't get far in Wing Chun without standing practice? How much standing practice? What sort? Is zhang zhuan sufficient to feed the Character 2 stance? San ti? Or does only character 2 work? Or single leg?

Victor,

among the many advantages of doing something immediately usable every class- it does help draw the students in!

Later,

Andrew

[YongChun]

Originally posted by AndrewS

Ray- I think I fundamentally disagree with your approach. I hate giving the 'sampler/survery/demo' lesson to people fresh off the street. I find it wastes everyone's time (like the class if there are other people there), puts you in a demeaning 'show and tell' position, and generally doesn't work. My take is that active participation from moment one is the best approach, that way a prospective student can find out if they like doing the work- training.

I always invite the student to come for a one hour free private where I do this. Then the students can see exactly what he is getting into, with no pressure, no one watching. Everyone I teach signed up that way. Sometimes these are people from other martial arts and sometimes the student knows absolutely nothing. So I find it always works. It's like a friendly hands on sale talk so they can see there is no BS. Then after that they can try a class.

Once a large police officer with a lot of martial arts background was watching the class at a rec centre where we were doing forms, some drills and some Chi sau. I noticed he was about to go so I quickly went to the door and asked him if he had any questions. He said no thank you, that was interesting. So I said can I show you something? He said Ok. So I said suppose I throw this straight punch at you -- I slowly throw a punch at him --- then how would you respond? He does something and then I counter and ask him to continue and we carry on for a few minutes. Then I explain some pointers to help him do whatever he did better. Then I say what these students were doing was this and that. So then this person signed up and stayed for 4 years. I asked him later what he thought when he was watching. He said it looked like garbage and that it couldn't be good for anything. During the 4 years he reported back all the time how he had used his Wing Chun on the job. He was working in the drug world.

So I like to show people here is what I can do. It's not that great but maybe better than what you have. So then they want to learn. If they are much better than me on the other hand, then they don't waste their time with me and can just go elsewhere right away.

I pretty well got all my students in that way except in some rec centre course that advertised and mentioned about Bruce Lee and a quick and economical way to learn self defense. In those classes I start off the same way as other have mentioned on this thread.

Ray