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Thread: Shoulders Down!

  1. #1

    Shoulders Down!

    Check this out. A useful little thing on the shoulder coming up before the arm. . .

    Andrew
    From t-mag:

    <http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do...itan?id=527581>

    One of the most common scapular dyskinesis patterns a clinician observes is the upper trapezius substitution with abduction and flexion. It closely relates to the aforementioned posture problems, as individuals with limited posterior scapular tilt need to try to find an alternate way to increase the subacromial space. Rather than using the appropriate serratus anterior-lower trapezius-upper trapezius force couple to posteriorly tilt, they simply "hike" the scapula with the upper trapezius and levator scapulae.

    This pattern is easily identified, as the shoulder girdle will rise before the humerus; you'll see it all the time in the gym when people do lateral raises. This hike will usually be accompanied by scapular winging due to a weak serratus anterior. Ronai actually likened this muscle to the transverse abdominus and vastus medialis in that all three tend to "shut down" when dysfunction is present. Finally, you'll likely see an underdeveloped/atrophied mid-back, as the lower traps won't be up to par.

  2. #2
    "Shrugging" my shoulders aggravates my (weightlifting and bag work initiated) osteolysis of the AC joint. My sports specialist devised a program to educate my body to not raising my shoulders. Besides, reaching for something up high, if you shrug you only gain a couple of inches max over an unshrugged shoulder. Shrugging == bad for shoulders.

    Nice link, AndrewS.
    "If trolling is an art then I am your yoda.if spelling counts, go elsewhere.........." - BL

    "I don't do much cardio." - Ironfist

    "Grip training is everything. I say this with CoC in hand." - abobo

  3. #3
    Hey Toby,

    what exercises did he/she give you?

    BTW- amusingly, I've been doing shrugs lately as assist work for my oly lifts and squats, and it seems the upper back activation doing weighted shrugs helps strengthen the rhomboids and trapezius, helping keep my shoulder girdle connected and down, both in my martial practice and when I am doing overhead work.

    Andrew

  4. #4
    Go with that one Andrew. I'm learnaing a little Pilates off a lady who has also studied at the Chek Institute and she says Shrugs should only be quite a small movement support the said muscles you stated. Try the Paul Chek institute website there's an interesting article section there. Also there are some correspondence courses that people can subscribe to which interested me but i would prefer a more hands on classroom approach should i ever try and learn any of this stuff real deeper.

    Got some good articles that break the weightlifting belt myths.

    Cheers
    Kev
    It's time to turn it on! This is what i train for, this is where i want to be. Fear is not an option it's time to release the rage!

  5. #5
    Hey Kevin,

    I read the Chek site, and lift without a belt. I've used Chek's method (suck in the TA), Pavel's (set the abs hard), and Louie's (press the abs out), and am finding the last two seem to work best- setting my core rock hard, then when I drive out of the hole it expands on its own when I seriously strain.

    There was a fair to-do about Chek's statements on the Supertraining list a while back.

    I think the idea of lifting without a belt, and making sure you're strong enough to move the weight without a belt is a good idea, but I may change my mind when my squat breaks 500.

    Later,

    Andrew

  6. #6
    Squat breaks 500??? Mate you got to be a monster ha ha..

    I think progressive training is the key, i mean i would never say to someone go strength train if out of shape you know what i mean. I believe newcomers have got to set realistic goals and build up progressively. Its there responsibility to do the research, their responsibility to make sure they're doing things right. I mean, i've wasted quite a lot of time training absolute crap methods when i was younger im sure you may have experienced this? So whilst i advocating lifting without a belt its important that people dont just jump in at the deep end and cause some horrendous type injury. So take the common sense approach much like Wing Chun i suppose.

    Also check out the Nsca site theres some good articles in the archive section..
    It's time to turn it on! This is what i train for, this is where i want to be. Fear is not an option it's time to release the rage!

  7. #7
    Quick message Andrew:

    Just checked my email, thanks very much bro i appreciate you taking the time to do that for me...

    Also ordered Supertraining to add to my library cheers for the tip...

    Kev
    It's time to turn it on! This is what i train for, this is where i want to be. Fear is not an option it's time to release the rage!

  8. #8
    Hey Kevin,

    Supertraining rocks- it's one of those books you can always go back to.

    I'm 250, a five hundred squat is at best a beginning for someone my size. I haven't tested my RM1 for a powerlifting squat for a while- last time maxed on a box squat below parallel I was around 330, and my bent leg GM is 335, so I should be around 400 these days, which kinda s*cks. One of my bros is hovering at 235 and squats 535 ATH, but he has this cool Russian lifter named Pavel who likes to coach him (lucky b*stard).

    As for my strength training background- did some stuff in college, laid off for a while doing entirely bodyweight stuff for my first 5 years of WT, then put together a resistance band program (WT specific) based on Bompa's Serious Strength Training which I did for a year and a half working up to such things as 3rm front steps with bands, then moved out to LA and started lifting after a year out here or so. I took 8 months off and did purely body weight and kettlebell work in there for a while. Basically, I'm a three year lifter now, a year into learning the olympic lifts, so I have a long way to go. Even so, I'm hoping to pull 500 before the New Year (452 2 mos ago), and the 500 squat and bodyweight overhead squat are my goals for next year.

    I've been pretty lucky in that my si-sok out here is an experience lifter and personal trainer into Olympic lifting, as was one of my old training partners, so I've had good people to bounce my ideas and routines off of, and probably haven't wasted as much time as I might have.


    Rambling on,

    Andrew

  9. #9
    Andrew you ramble on mate...Always take time to read you're posts mate.

    Funnily enough and i think it Zatsiorskys Book that said you shouldnt attempt Plyo's or Pliometrics (should you prefer his wording) until you can squat double youre body weight. This apparently is what contributes to a lot of peoples injuries ie new latest fad lets jump in at the deep end etc etc. Personally found no prob with it

    Im sit around 195 -200 at the mo, Just regained some weight back. Done a triathalon earleir this year and those guys are built like whippets had to put the s & c on the back burner for a while the amount of training i was doing was insane. Got down to around 170 which was good but had to buy a load more clothes hanging off me man...

    Gonna also get Tom Kurz's works gotta wait a while what with xmas coming up..

    Sorry mate i'm droning on now!!!!

    Kev
    It's time to turn it on! This is what i train for, this is where i want to be. Fear is not an option it's time to release the rage!

  10. #10
    Originally posted by AndrewS
    what exercises did he/she give you?
    3 main ones (all variations on a theme).

    (1) Standing, arms by my side. Try to contract the lat on one side in isolation. Ultimate goal is to be able to do this hard without recruiting the pec on that side too. I can contract lightly, but not hard - the pec comes in every time.

    (2) One arm pushups sort of. Get in the start position for a one arm pushup. Pull the associated shoulder "back". Feels like the bottom position of bench i.e. pulling your shoulder blades together. So you stay horizontal with a straight arm, but your chest moves a few inches towards the ground. From the "lowered" position, rotate your upper body away from the ground keeping the arm straight. I go to about 45 degrees so I'm looking across towards the wall on the opposite side of my body from the supporting arm. Back to start and repeat. You can do this leaning against a wall to start, or inclined on a couch, bench, or on the floor to vary difficulty.

    (3) Take a container (bucket, large bottle) and fill it with water to create an unstable weight. You could probably use dumbells or KBs too. Do lunges, reaching forward with the opposite arm, which is holding the weight. Each time reach a different random direction, so try to hit e.g. the hours on a clock. Each time back to the start bring your arm to a different position (low, high, extended to the side, etc).

    Important in all exercises is to keep the shoulder low. Periodically I have to pause and do a shrug with the respective shoulder and drop it again to remind me where I should be.

    Originally posted by Toby
    Shrugging == bad for shoulders.
    This was a poor comment. Shrugging == fine in it's place. I don't do shrugs, but I appreciate their value for building trapezius for helping the other lifts. What I had was imbalance from years of poor form. I shrugged _constantly_, like all day long just because I'd developed poor habits. I've read you can tell some weightlifters by their relaxed stance. If their hands hang out in front pronated (like a monkey ), they're developed certain imbalances in their shoulders, lats, chest. That's what my stance was like. If your hands hang by your sides palms next to your thighs, that's fine. My PT exercises are supposed to be high rep and educate my body. Shrugging per se isn't bad, but it's bad to shrug while doing certain other exercises, which is what I did. Just as an example, shrugging while doing lateral dumbell raises (or even lifting things off shelves in the pantry) is bad, and that's what I would do unconsciously. Puts a bad load on certain parts of your shoulder girdle apparently. OTOH, shrugging while doing a vertical lift (like dead or Oly lifts) isn't so bad. Now I've done the damage though, I have to be careful of that too. Dunno why I'm saying all this - I'm sure you know more about it than I ever will, right?

    Hey AndrewS, if you ever decide to post more, there's definitely a place for you on the training forum. There are a bunch of hobbiests like me on there and one super-knowledgeable guy. I'm sure a doc and heavy lifter would be welcome any time.
    "If trolling is an art then I am your yoda.if spelling counts, go elsewhere.........." - BL

    "I don't do much cardio." - Ironfist

    "Grip training is everything. I say this with CoC in hand." - abobo

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