20 rep deadlift program...

[Samurai Jack]

Well, I've been doing PTP for almost five months now, and I feel it's time for a change. While I've experienced terrific strength gains, esp. on my Deads, I've had almost no size gains (nothing measurable anyway). I've always really liked the 20 rep squat program from "Super Squats", but I haven't got any access to a squat-rack anymore, so I think I'm going to do a modified PTP inspired 20 rep Deadlift program. It looks like this:

Deadlift 1X20
Military Press 3X failure
Concentration Curls 3X failure, forced reps, negatives
Skull-crushers 1X failure, forced reps, negatives
Coc gripper 3X failure, forced reps, negatives

I'll do this 3X per week. Of course you notice the excessive arm emphasis. This is due to my arms lagging behind the rest of my body quite a bit now. Since I haven't bothered to isolate them for over two years, I figure it might be useful to try to now. I know bench press and pull-ups would probably make the program more rounded, but I haven't the gear at this time.

So my current goal is to start at 100 lbs. deadlifts X20 and add five pounds per workout until I'm pulling my current five rep max (320 lbs.) X20. After that, I'll re-evaluate. Any coments or suggestions? I won't start this new program until Wed.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
So my current goal is to start at 100 lbs. deadlifts X20 and add five pounds per workout until I'm pulling my current five rep max (320 lbs.) X20. After that, I'll re-evaluate. Any coments or suggestions? I won't start this new program until Wed.

Wow, um, keep us posted.

[Samurai Jack]

Would you do something differently? Or are you just making fun of my pathetic Deadlift max?

[IronFist]

No I just think that would be amazing if it worked up to 320 x 20.

Your deadlift max is 5 pounds higher than mine, so I can't make fun of you.

But I think I weigh less, so I win... kinda

But with DL you don't really do the eccentric portion, and isn't the eccentric portion more responsible for size gain than the concentric? What I'm saying is, you might be kinda shooting yourself in the foot having a 20 rep program which is obviously designed for mass but doing it with an exercise that doesn't really have an eccentric portion.

That being said, I think DL most improved my hamstring development, and I never did more than 5 reps. Or maybe it's just the fact that I squat very low which brings the hamstrings into play.

I dunno. That's why I said keep us posted of your progress.

[IronFist]

PS. That 220 pound increase at 5lbs per workout assuming 3 workouts per week will take 14 weeks and 2 workouts the 15th week.

[Samurai Jack]

Yeah, I figure two and a half months might be enough, but if it gets to the point that I can't make my reps, I'll probably start periodizing with wave cycles or something.

As far as eccentric contractions go, I lower the weight slowly and under control when I Deadlift, is that what you're refering to? I know you and Pavel don't agree with lowering the weight slowly on Deads, but the thing is I've hurt my back every time I've ever just "dropped" the weight as Pavel suggests, so I streer clear of that method now. I will let you know how it goes though, and I figure the routine will stand unless I get any compelling suggestions between now and Wednesday (which, of course you are welcome to make).

[IronFist]

If lowering a deadlift slowly works for you, then go ahead. Just be careful.

I'm actually pretty interested in what kind of results you get.

If you had a squat rack would you do 20 rep squats instead?

What were your strength gains like with PTP?

Have fun getting owned by high rep stuff for the first few weeks

[Toby]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
I know you and Pavel don't agree with lowering the weight slowly on Deads, but the thing is I've hurt my back every time I've ever just "dropped" the weight as Pavel suggests, so I streer clear of that method now.

I lower it, but not slowly. I don't drop it from waist height, but I don't try and hold it up. Maybe 1/3-1/2 effort. Maybe less, dunno. I try to keep the same good form on the way down as up - i.e. arched back especially.

[vingtsunstudent]

there was once a post from DD i used to have saved but can no longer find that had a full layout for how to convert 20 rep squats to 20 rep deads.

if you've ever done 20 rep squats you know how bad they are meant to be both physically and(probably even more so) mentally so if it were me i'd be tryin' to achieve that target of 320 starting from 150 anything less and you might just miss all the pure misery that this sort of program should offer.

vts

[Ford Prefect]

I think you're starting way too light. You'll end up with an extremely long cycle. Not only are doing 20 rep programs strenuous to begin with, but the law of dimishing returns would have the exercise losing it's effectiveness long before you reach your goal.

Most you want is an 8 week cycle. Work from there backwards, if you are doing 2 workouts/week adding 5 lbs/workout, then your starting weight should be 245 lbs (that's only 75 lbs, but that gives you the lee-way to skip a workout if you need to)

Same with a 20-rep squat workout.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Toby
I lower it, but not slowly. I don't drop it from waist height, but I don't try and hold it up. Maybe 1/3-1/2 effort. Maybe less, dunno. I try to keep the same good form on the way down as up - i.e. arched back especially.

Yeah, Pavel says you should do a controlled drop, not like literally dropping it. What you're doing sounds about right, although maybe a little slow.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
I think you're starting way too light. You'll end up with an extremely long cycle. Not only are doing 20 rep programs strenuous to begin with, but the law of dimishing returns would have the exercise losing it's effectiveness long before you reach your goal.

Most you want is an 8 week cycle. Work from there backwards, if you are doing 2 workouts/week adding 5 lbs/workout, then your starting weight should be 245 lbs (that's only 75 lbs, but that gives you the lee-way to skip a workout if you need to)

Same with a 20-rep squat workout.

You could always start at 100 but add 15 or 20lbs per workout for the first week or two.

I think if you're coming off of 5 months of PTP that 20 reps at even 100 pounds will be hard. If it were me, and my 1RM was 320 like his, there is no FREAKING WAY that I could START at 245 x 20. For reference, when I squated 315 x 1, it was a challenge for me to do 135 x 15 after that. 245 x 20 would be completely out of the question. 245 x 10 would have even been out of the question.

[fa_jing]

OK, so his 5RM is 320. I think he should start at 185lbs or maybe 175. 320 for 20 reps is not a reasonable goal. 20reps at 275 would be major.

Working the grip after the 20-rep deadlift set will kill the cycle for sure.

Also, I would think that for this kind of volume work which is primarily hypertrophy training, the lowering should be done under control.

[Ford Prefect]

Dunno. It could be a mental thing too. Didn't you say you got a headache when you tried doing 20 reps? All I know is I've done it like this a few times and the reason I did is because this is generally accepted model for doing it. 245 lbs is only 75% of his 5RM. At worst, he could work the cycle in the 10 lbs increments/workout and start at 170 lbs.

The reason these 20 rep cycles work is because of the frequency combined with the small incremental steps. Don't fix it if it ain't broke.

[IronFist]

geez I can't believe I can't read. I thought he said his 1RM was 320. Forget everything I said cuz it was based off the wrong numbers.

And then, yes, I'm jealous of your 320 x 5RM, and no, I'm not winning then