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Thread: Aikido

  1. #31
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    Yeah that's right Jack, kokyu dosa. Nice description btw I always prefer to think in terms of principles than techniques in my aiki. I think technique-based aiki has lead to a lot of the old outdated battlefield techs being misemphasized as modern self-defence-applicable techs when they just don't work the way they are taught.

    Anyway, for a slightly different angle on kokyu dosa check this out. I don't know if you already think of it this way, but you missed it out of your explanation... and it was the first time I'd heard of it this way...

    My aikijutsu teacher has it that the difference between the aikido schools and the aikijutsu schools is that jutsu teaches it for all of those things but the other important distinction is that kokyu dosa is a way of feeling and practising the connection between your centre and your opponent's (partner's - whatever! ) centre, and that this can be applied just as well to striking.

    So my teacher emphasises it as an exercise for striking principles too, in fact, he doesn't distinguish between the two. He says it gives you the relaxed energy to find your opponent's centre quickly and to be able to explode your energy relaxedly outwards (eventually from any contact point on the body).

    In theory this differs in that if you are relaxed in that way it gives the opponent nothing to hold onto. So he grabs and it's like he's grabbed nothing, so he has no leverage, and because he thought he was grabbing something you already have the kuzushi: he is already tricked into overcommitting. Of course this is not overcommitting like most aikidoists use the word; like a big Scooby-Doo-zombie lunge, or a punch from two metres away where you move out of the way in advance and they stand there at the end of the punch, all static and on one leg holding their arm out, but a subtle shift in his bodyweight for a split-second allowing you to take advantage (er sorry, blend with his disadvantage! ). As I'm sure you know this is similar to tai chi in many ways.

    This theory of course translates directly into the way you practise, not only kokyu dosa but also in general. If you don't have that relaxed energy, at any point in the movement your opponent can send you energy back to you, in other words he can jerk, push, punch, uproot through your arm and directly into or through your centre. Again this has parallels to tai chi and wing chun in terms of uprooting, kendo and wing chun in terms of speed of attack, and the timing of redirection of attack, and many other arts I guess. In my MA exp so far, this sensei has the closest to any 'unstoppable energy' in striking or grappling I've come across, although my shooto teacher's shoot is close. Very fast, fluid, and explosive and you don't feel anything until your centre is out.

    The other subtle distinction in practise methods is that we use the kokyu dosa practise on kick pads and focus pads too, and heavy bags when we have them. So from a neutral stance, suwari or (pref) standing we are getting used to hitting straight out and into the centre of the target. Although the direction of the punch, as the dosa, is slightly upwards, there is no 'slippage'. That is the punch goes into the target and in no way does your energy slide off to the side. This gets the crumple effect on the bag that a good boxing punch gets or a good wing chun punch gets, where the bag crumples around your fist without moving so much on the chain.

    Try it! It's very very fast and very very relaxed. I also found it helped my relaxation in kokyu dosa itself and in many aspects of grappling (both mid-range in aiki and close range in jujutsu).

    Should note that my teacher is from a daito-ryu and a hsing i background so he may have mixed and matched his ideas. Sometimes he talks about intention leading the movement like 'yi' in Chinese. But, there is an article I'll try an find from a trad aikisutsuka which says the same thing.

    I should also note that I tried that specific strike with boxing gloves (14 oz) on live resisting opponents (!) without much success. The dynamics of fighting with 14 oz gloves are just too different. The principle itself crossed over nicely and helped me to relax in my boxing class too. And as I said, although I like principle-based practise rather than tech-based this particular strike does lend itself well to this principle, so I'll let you know my results next time I get serious and practise it on live resisting opponents with my MMA gloves! Of course the gloves shouldn't make much of a difference, ie I'll still have to 'pull' the punch or rather, turn it into more of a push-punch... except that in a pressure testing full-contact situation where basically anything goes I should be able to try it out a little more 'realistically' without liability.

    Anyway, regardless of the strike techs themselves, if you change your mindset to actually practising that way, concentrating more on their centre than yours, I think you'll like the results.

    BTW, my teacher usually gets us practising just the arm-raise move, not the full unbalance, follow-up and pin. He says that's the most important for realizing the centre-centre connection. We do do the finish too, but not every session. He also gets us practising the same move standing in a neutral position, and in fact is quite capable of raining on our parade using basically just that move/principle!

    Sorry it's so long. Could probably show you in five minutes or less!
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  2. #32
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    BTW Jack, your dojo description sounds just like the one I learnt in back home.

    If you add a couple of LEO teachers and teachers who also teach LEOs.

    If ever I'm in the area we should hook up, I should visit the dojo or something. I've heard a lot about Chiba (not all of it good, but it depends on what fruities you're listening to! )... although if ever I do actually make that trip to the States, it's all gonna hafta be training in different places...! Oh well!
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  3. #33
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    Quote from 'Fist (hammer)' thread.

    Originally posted by Samurai Jack
    I condition my Tsuki and drilling punches on the concrete outside, or against a cinderblock wall. One Thousand strikes a day, with lot's of Dit Da Jow. I'm the only Aikidoka I've ever heard of who does this, but the old Hombu dojo used to have makiwara for fist training in the garden.
    I drill strikes every day. I don't do a thousand strikes (used to do exactly that many, and a thousand bokuto cuts too), but I make sure I hit something hard every day. . .

    Wait till I get my wallbag and heavy bag!

    I only started doing conditioning when I did karate tho, and continued when I started wing chun, so I can't really say it's part of my aiki.

    The sword cuts were. I would do

    basic shomen (stationary)
    yokomen (both sides - stationary)
    shomen (stepping forwards, backwards, and at angles)
    yokomen (ditto)
    the aiki suburi (we do 6)
    the aiki techs ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, kotegaeshi, iriminage soto (thrust with bokuto), iriminage tenkan (finishing with kesagiri), shihonage (of course - beautiful with a sword! - in fact, I'd say that contains as fundamental principles as kokyu dosa)
    the aiki sword kata (don't know how common this is, we're the only school I've met that does it: 24 moves, allegedly from one of the Yagyu schools)...

    Those were the days, when I was a student, unemployed, self-employed!
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  4. #34
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    Gosh, Mat you're a postin' maniac! There's no way I can do your lengthy posts justice with my time constraints, but I'm honored that you'd pay my dojo a visit if you were in the area, and here you were saying we disagree...

    Anyway, I know about Kokyu Dosa being one of Aikido's methods for training Atemi due to the whole contact/connection with uke and nage's centers. I just haven't explored it to the extent that you apparently have, but of course I'd love to train with you so you could show me what you're doing. Perhaps one day.

    As far as the hammer fist thing which you mentioned being surprised about on another thread: like you said, it's principles training. Sure Aikido dosen't really have a hammer fist per se, but it does have lots of "notoriously unrealistic" chopping type hand strikes, though as you know they're really cuts, and they have thier uses. I preffer to throw in a hammer fist occassionaly instead of only cutting. It's not really part of Aikido, but it's very effective and for some reason, the hammer fist seems to compell a resistant uke to see it my way pretty quickly. They tend to land with a tooth loosening thud, rather than a slicing, "filing", or cutting motion like with the sword hand. Sort of the difference between a club and a bamboo reed.

    Sometimes only a club will do.

    By the way. Someday I'm going to open my own dojo, and we're going to do Aikido the way it was before people thought "Harmony" meant peace, rather than using your opponent's own force to crack his head open. I wonder what the hippies will say?

    Cheers!
    Bodhi Richards

  5. #35
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    Yeah, it was a bit long eh...!

    I said I'd give it a bit of detail, that's why I didn't wanna go off half-cocked and write before.

    Anyway, I did say we didn't agree all the time, I didn't mean abjectly. Maybe I was wrong: there seem to be more parallels than I previously thought.

    I too want to open a dojo. I'll drop you a PM with my intended curriculum if you're interested... and I'd be interested in yours... if they're really close we can even form a bogus organization!!! Always wanted to be a soke!
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  6. #36
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    Thumbs up

    You two are a great resource to bounce ideas and questions off of. My GF is taking her first class tonight. I'm not going to be able to take one for a while due to my knee, but I'm looking forward to hearing her perspectives. She almost went pro in golf and her uncle was a karate champion in Japan and her dad was a judo practioner and wrestled at BYU, so she's an athlete and has been around the MA enough to where I'm sure she will pick things up quickly. Oh, she also taught ball room dancing for a spell so she's used to feeling and reacting to one's center. Should be fun. I'm trying to get her to post here too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  7. #37
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    Re: Aikido

    Originally posted by Judge Pen
    I've started dating a woman who is interested in Aikido and wants to start taking classes. I'll probably take a class a week with her as well. How many of you have any real experience in Aikido? What should I focus on to maxamize my cross-training?
    You should focus on the woman, stupid!

  8. #38
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    I have no problem taking care of my girl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  9. #39
    Thanks again, Samurai Jack. You said that instructors in your lineage aren't hesistant to get rough. I realize the need to go spar at a high intensity every now and then, but if you do it on a regular basis, you are risking serious injury, perhaps permanently. What kind of injuries have you and your training partners exerienced as a result of the training? Have you found it difficult to hold down or find a job as a result? Thanks in advance.

  10. #40
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    Originally posted by phantom
    Thanks again, Samurai Jack. You said that instructors in your lineage aren't hesistant to get rough. I realize the need to go spar at a high intensity every now and then, but if you do it on a regular basis, you are risking serious injury, perhaps permanently. What kind of injuries have you and your training partners exerienced as a result of the training? Have you found it difficult to hold down or find a job as a result? Thanks in advance.
    Of course. I forgot to mention that as a result of my Aikido training I'm a wheelchair bound invalid on welfare. Most of us at the dojo just crawl around on the mat and hit eachother over the heads with our prosthetic limbs. We're one tough crew.
    Bodhi Richards

  11. #41
    Well, I guess that means that you feel that that was a stupid question. I am sorry if it annoyed you, but I do think that it was reasonable, as there have been serious injuries and even a few deaths in aikido. I am still interested in learning it, though.

  12. #42
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    Originally posted by phantom
    I am sorry if it annoyed you, but I do think that it was reasonable, as there have been serious injuries and even a few deaths in aikido.
    Sorry, I thought you were being facetious. So where have you heard about these deaths? In all honesty, one of our students broke both of her arms last year during practice. That's the most serious injury to have occured at our dojo, but frankly, that particular injury could have happened practicing any martial art that involves tumbling. Instead of performing a breakfall, she tried to catch herself on her palms, and broke both arms at the wrist. She wasn't even being thrown.
    Last edited by Samurai Jack; 01-10-2005 at 04:49 PM.
    Bodhi Richards

  13. #43

    Thumbs up

    Thanks, Samurai Jack. That sounds like an injury rate that I can live with. Here is an article about the deaths: http://aikinews.com/articles/_articl...ArticleID=497.

  14. #44
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    Interesting. Summer Camps and Seminars can be quite difficult.
    Bodhi Richards

  15. #45
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    I doubt that the injury/death rate is substantially higher in aikido than any other martial art where break-falling is a major part of practice.

    Anyway, my GF was trying to show me how the "ki pin" worked. I'm still not healthy enough to try the class with her, but she's loving it and going 3 nights a week.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

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