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Thread: the purpose of study Chinese Martial art History

  1. #1
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    the purpose of study Chinese Martial art History

    A purpose of study Chinese Martial art history is to be able to decode , clearify technical issues from history data.
    Thus, the study of history can become a tool instead of become a myth generator to promote myth.



    EI. philosophical wise, On Zen teaching relation.

    it has been a while people love to use Chan Patraich, Chan Warrior, Chan teaching, Chan way, or teaching with mouth to ear, body to body....ect.

    But wait a minute, the facts in the history of Chan is that there are only about 31 students of HuiNeng who studied under him got the Chan.

    So, here is the problem. a patriach in his whole life only has 31 people master his teaching. isnt him teach in the Zenist style, Chan way, .... of mouth to ear, body to body teaching? so why is it only 31 got enligtenment?

    The above facts show that even one is teach privately by the Patriach himself, there is no guareentee one will get it. thus, the method Chan, Chan patriach, or mouth to ear, body to body type of teaching is just a tradition but not a must and no guareentee to success or salvation. Not to mention, is the one who passed the Zen is within the 31? if not, then on got a problem of where is that Zen from?

    Thus, the Facts about Zen lay clear in the history.



    EI. Mechanics wise, FAlling steps vesus Sung/Chen Zhen Jing.

    There are components of style which is described/ defined in the Chinese martial art history which one be able to track.

    Say, Something which is related to the descrision of the Falling step will be about how to utilize the Falling Potential or Tie Shi (in madarin). one can see this falling potential utilization greatly in the script or kuit of the Drunken Style.

    The usage of the FAll to accelerate to transfer power to neutralize power. That Tie Shi or falling potential has no direct relation to Sung/Chen or Zhen jing because it is about Potential not about the way of conditioning the physical body.

    It is about how to use a potential in this case ; the potential while falling: be it intentionaly or accidentally. That fall potential then can be further anylize into free nature fall, intent generation fall, fast fall......etc


    So, studying history of CMA does be able to provide a decoding help to see what is going on instead of taking Myth or he said/she said as the truth and continous on bebate with the bias speculation. But, see clearly what is what. there is no need to argure because very often the facts lay there clearly in details.



    IMHHHHHO
    Last edited by yellowpikachu; 12-09-2004 at 09:35 AM.

  2. #2
    Since most people that I admire has much better fighting skills than me, I figure one way to get even is to beat them over their heads with long tomes of obscure oriental history and esoteric martial arts manuals. It gives me some satisfaction. =)

    P.S. Hendrik, could you give an example on intention generation fall? I'm not clear on this.
    Last edited by PaulH; 12-09-2004 at 02:38 PM.

  3. #3
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    Originally posted by PaulH
    Since most people that I admire has much better fighting skills than me, I figure one way to get even is to beat them over their heads with long tomes of obscure oriental history and esoteric martial arts manuals. It gives me some satisfaction. =)

    P.S. Hendrik, could you give an example on intention generation fall? I'm not clear on this.

    boy, you do really seems like love mystherious stuffs.

    Intention generation fall? try pick up your computer and smash it to the floor. that is intention generated fall isnt it?

  4. #4
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    I don't care whether Abner Doubleday really invented baseball or not -- whether he did or didn't, it won't change my enjoyment of the game or how I play the game.

    The history of a martial art, while interesting, doesn't help one develop skill in that martial art. Knowing the history of BJJ won't help one when rolling, knowing the history of boxing won't help one in the ring, knowing the history of swordfighting won't help one fence, and knowing the history of WCK won't help us fight (apply our WCK).

    How some persons in the past were (allegedly) able to make things work for them isn't controlling or defining for how we should or need to do things for ourselves to make them work for ourselves. While I agree that we should learn from history, we should not be bound by history. If the history of marital arts teaches us anything, it is that martial arts continually evolve and grow because our knowledge and experience evolves and grows.

  5. #5
    I just like good stories.

    The Matrix (absent sequels), Star Wars (absent prequels), Shaolin Temple, whatever. If they're tied to an MA or not, good stories are good stories.

    Gracie Way has good stories, although Ng Mui is more archetypal and powerful, IMHO.

  6. #6
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    Originally posted by t_niehoff
    knowing the history of WCK won't help us fight (apply our WCK).

    See, histoy comes with two parts. The events history and the technical history.

    You might be suprise if people really investigate into history. since people cant differentiate between Sung/Chen / Zheng Jing with Falling steps this days. people needs histories. (NOt those myth)

    furthermore, what is WCK's Keng Geng today? according to history it is a speedy shock wave turn into strike.

    Knowing Keng Geng sure will help one fight and improve atleast 2x capability. as the history said.
    Last edited by yellowpikachu; 12-10-2004 at 09:21 AM.

  7. #7
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    A person doesn't need to know the "technical history" of boxing to become a good boxer, they don't need to know the "technical history" of BJJ to become a good groundfighter, and they don't need to know the "technical history" of WCK to become a good WCK fighter. Theoreticians dogmatically stick to "technical history" (this is how folks have tried things in the past) for how they should do things today because they aren't fighting. Without the feedback from fighting (seeing what really works for them), they can do nothing more than mimic the actions of past practitioners in noncombative situations (this is what I would do in a fight) while assuring themselves that "doing this worked for so-and-so, so it will work for me."

  8. #8
    A person doesn't need to know the "technical history" of boxing to become a good boxer,
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Comment on above- true.

    However- Ali knew a lot about what earlier fighters did or didnt do.
    Tyson in his formative years with D'Amato was an an avid watcher of ALL old fight films---the late Joe Jacobs his co trainer had the best collection of fight films ever. That collection has now broken up into several ownerships.

    An aside- Tyson lives here in the Phoenix metro- unfortunately and allegedly and reportedly jumped on the hood of a car night before last outside of a night club . Angry that the driver didnt move his car. Beat the hood of the car with his fists and did considerable damage to the hood. Showed up ata hearing with a lawyer and refused to answer questions. He is also rebuilding after knee surgery. The driver is a Tyson fan - just wants his car repaired without pressing charges.

    Bud Wilkinson the late great football coach at Oklahoma used to watch all the old and the then current football films.

    With an open mind you pick up insights wherever you can-then its up to you- experiment, practice, adjust.

  9. #9
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    Originally posted by t_niehoff
    they don't need to know the "technical history" of WCK to become a good WCK fighter.

    Theoreticians dogmatically stick to "technical history" (this is how folks have tried things in the past) for how they should do things today because they aren't fighting. ....

    so what is this people doing? street fighting or WCK?

    looking at an atleast 2x improvement if one knows keng geng compare with before one has no idea about it. that is a 200% heck improvment and transcent be it in fighting or daily life.
    thanks to the technical history! thus, I have heard.


    BTW: the comparison qouting of falling steps and sung/chen zheng jing shown that you have not meet a real TCMA theorician yet. A TCMA theorician will not make the equavalent of the sung/... to falling steps. a make belive theorician might.

    the dangerous is on one doesnt know what one thinks one know.
    Last edited by yellowpikachu; 12-10-2004 at 12:27 PM.

  10. #10
    niehoff say: they don't need to know the "technical history" of BJJ to become a good groundfighter


    I say: I dare you to go find one person helio train to above black belt who do not know "technical history" of both BJJ and JJJ



  11. #11
    They know Helio Gracie's version. Carlson's would be different, and Japanese Judoka's perhaps different still...

  12. #12
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    Thus,

    When the event history and the technical history dont converge,
    One knows the direction of the history reseach has a problem.






    They know Helio Gracie's version. Carlson's would be different, and Japanese Judoka's perhaps different still...--------



    One might remember differently how a guy was hit by a truck.

    But, the truck that hit the man and the man who hit by the truck ; and the speed of the collusion can be traced.

    beyond he says she says or what one thinks.

  13. #13
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    Originally posted by t_niehoff
    A person doesn't need to know the "technical history" of boxing to become a good boxer, they don't need to know the "technical history" of BJJ to become a good groundfighter
    Usually intelligent people in ANY subject like to explore EVERYTHING they can about their subject and that includes history. It doesn't help a modern physicist to solve his differential equations by knowing how Archimedes did his science either. But every physicist is aware of what he did and how. A street fighter doesn't care about academics, the only thing that counts is if he bashes someone's head in. There is something good about scholar's too. To apply an armlock, it's true I don't need to know the history of arm locks.

    Ray
    Victoria, British Columbia, Wing Chun

  14. #14
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    Originally posted by Vajramusti
    An aside- Tyson lives here in the Phoenix metro- unfortunately and allegedly and reportedly jumped on the hood of a car night before last outside of a night club . Angry that the driver didnt move his car. Beat the hood of the car with his fists and did considerable damage to the hood. Showed up ata hearing with a lawyer and refused to answer questions. He is also rebuilding after knee surgery. The driver is a Tyson fan - just wants his car repaired without pressing charges.
    Perhaps Tyson would have benefitted from a little more time spent studying history.

    Regards,
    - kj

  15. #15
    KJ--

    True.

    Just when you think that he is settling down something happens.
    Given his down hill slide he should be ready for mma soon. he tried to break Botha's arm once so he could be ready -together with his
    taste for ear lobes(Holyfld) and knees(Lewis at the weighin) he could be ready for handling some ground or pound and ground folks . The problem is- that wont pay his bills- apparently he has many.
    But --- re standards... compared to Don King?....


    joy

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