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Thread: The K1 Pivot

  1. #1
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    The K1 Pivot

    Vankuen's question on another thread suggested that this may be a good topic because many doing Yip Man WCK may not have experienced it. As a general classification, most Yip Man WCK does the chor ma shifting motion using the heels as the pivot point. Most non-Yip Man WCK uses K1 (a spot just behind the ball of the foot and centered) as the pivot point. Again, this is a generalization only......some Yip Man WCK lineages also use the K1 spot to pivot on.

    I practiced WCK from a Yip Man lineage that pivots on the heels for many years. Then when a discussion on the topic came up on the WCML I was convinced to give the K1 pivot a fair trial and really liked it. Not long after that I became part of a Pin Sun WCK lineage that teaches to pivot on the K1 point. So I thought I would provide what I have found to be advantages to pivoting on the K1 point. This is not to say that pivoting on the heels is wrong. Other's mileage may vary. :-)

    IMHO, these are some of the good points about the K1 pivot:

    1. Good balance. In just about any human motion involving using the feet the toes are used for balance. When pivoting on K1 you can still "grip" the ground with the toes providing excellent stability. The weight also stays forward near the center of the foot rather than rocking back to the heels even momentarily. This also increases balance and stability.

    2. Good safety. The K1 pivot, even when using a 50/50 weight distribution, takes you off of the line of attack. Therefore your defensive motions become more deflective in nature and you are in a safer position. If one needs to pivot, the pivot itself should be part of the defensive response.

    3. Good rooting/sinking. Since the weight stays centered near the middle of the foot rather than transferring back to the heels, this encourages the knees to converge more in the stance. This leads to better sinking. And again, since the weight does not transfer back to the heels even momentarily, one can stay rooted more easily.

    Some additional points to keep in mind:

    1. Just because the K1 spot is the pivot point, this does not mean you are up on the balls of your feet. Even though the heels are "swinging" during the pivot, they do not leave the ground but rather slide across the surface.

    2. Likewise, when the heel is used as the pivot point, one does not "rock back" completely on the heels and let the front of the foot come off the ground. When the toes "swing", they too just slide across the surface.

    3. However, given the above two points, biomechanically greater than 50% of the weight distribution has to be either at the K1 point for the heels to "swing", or at the heels for the toes to "swing." IMHO, keeping the weight forward near the center of the foot and pivoting off of the line of attack are the two major advantages to the K1 method of pivoting.

    The above is just my opinion, and in no way should be seen as an attack on anyone else's way of doing things. Just wanted those that have never seen the K1 pivot to have the right info.

    Keith

  2. #2
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    It's fun to theorize why this is superior to that -- but it is just that: theory. But it's so simple: just get in there and fight and see what it is you *must* do to make things work. The demands of fighting will be your guide. For example, regardless of one's lineage and how they were taught to do things, when they actually get in and mix it up enough, they'll find that the demands of fighting force them to find the "proper" weighting (for them).

  3. #3
    You need both theory and application. Why?

    Some people are natural fighters who can make almost anything work. They could beat you down with ballet. It doesn't matter to them what they do, nor could they explain how to do it to anyone else (and would likely get frustrated trying).

    Others could try different things, but not have the type of brain that easily figures out why one things works and the other does not. Out of a very complex set of variables, they cannot distinguish which elements made the difference.

    Others might have very non-competitive, non-conflict oriented personalities, and for them having a check-list of possible elements to attempt would be useful to help them bridge the gap towards better application. Rather than just shying off or giving up, specific technical material can be invaluable towards making them just that much more confident and that much closer towards the next step.

    IMHO, currently the best way to train is to engage in progressive resistance while under the watchful eye of an expert instructor who can make specific note of whatever errors you may be making (or areas you can improve), and then coach you into improving them. Stuff like, turn more on K1 and less on the heel can be part of that, but then, as you said it has to be put back into the progressive resistance model.

  4. #4
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    First one develops a structure.

    Then one learns to send/recieve with the structure.

    Then one applies the structure.

    Then one makes it natural and part of them flowing freely so its adaptable and not a rigid method.

    ***

    How long does it take for someone to cultivate the structure? Many do not want to spend the time to learn and train the body so that it represents the flavor/attributes/etc. versus doing what they want and calling it what they want?

    Just being able to apply or fight with whatever they want does not mean its WCK.

    Kieth is writing about the things "he" has felt from spending the time to "train" it a different way. He is experiencing different things and can write about those things. Certainly if he did not spend the time to "train" that, and was still heel shifting, and went out to fight I do not think his body would automatically start K1 shifting because of the pressure of the fight! For someone to do something in a fight they need to spend the time to train it and make it part of their natural ways.


    Mr. "A" spends 3 years of intense training of the body/methods. Mr. "A" focuses on the Little Details and trains hard to make them the norm.
    Mr. "A" then works very hard at applying his training in exchange with others.

    Mr. "B" spends some time training the body/methods.
    Mr. "B" wants to fight right away so he focuses on exchange with others and adjust his body so he roots easier etc..

    In the short run Mr. "B" will get some fighting skill quick.

    In the long run Mr. "A" (if he takes the time to apply his art) will end up being a better WCK exponent.

    Are both WCK? To the outside eye yes but when the essence can no longer be produced then the answer is no. So, will fighting tell you what works or what does not work? To some extent it can but how does one know if what is working is WCK or not if they have no root to cultivate from?

    WCK or WCK Concepts?

    Just like JKD or JKD Concepts?


    Conceptual "Art" or the Art Concepts being used anyway and still being called the art?


    The idea is similar but the representation is just not the same IMO.


    Regards,
    Jim

  5. #5
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    RR wrote:


    You need both theory and application. Why?

    Some people are natural fighters who can make almost anything work.


    Yes! Balance!


    RR then wrote:

    IMHO, currently the best way to train is to engage in progressive resistance while under the watchful eye of an expert instructor who can make specific note of whatever errors you may be making (or areas you can improve), and then coach you into improving them.


    Yes!


    Good post RR!
    Jim

  6. #6
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    Thus I have heard,


    Two points/area under the feet were needed while deliver power. single point will not do the job.


    Agree with Rene and JIm on the Balance of the theory and the application.



    A few questions for Terence is that,
    if one has no idea and have never train in delivering inch punch. how is this person can find how to deliver an inch punch just doing fighting?

    and what kind of power generation does this person use for his fighting? does he aware of how effective/ not is his power generation?
    Last edited by yellowpikachu; 12-10-2004 at 09:13 AM.

  7. #7
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    Originally posted by t_niehoff
    It's fun to theorize why this is superior to that -- but it is just that: theory. But it's so simple: just get in there and fight and see what it is you *must* do to make things work. The demands of fighting will be your guide. For example, regardless of one's lineage and how they were taught to do things, when they actually get in and mix it up enough, they'll find that the demands of fighting force them to find the "proper" weighting (for them).

    There you go again Terence...."fight, fight, fight!" As I've asked before...where's the balance? Everything I said previously was based upon my own practical experience with both methods and my own knowledge of biomechanics. My conclusions are based upon more than just theory. I've also found, and been told by others, that pivoting on the K1 point is more technically challenging than pivoting on the heels. There is a definite learning curve to getting it right. As stated already on this thread, it is very unlikely that someone will just start pivoting on the K1 point during a fight without having trained it. You have to build a foundation before you can have good application.

    Keith

  8. #8
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    Since today is a great day to settle some great history even such as the pivoting...... I AM GOING TO MAKE DEC 10TH 200T4 A DAY TO BE REMEMBERED! ;D



    Listen carefully!!!!!



    THUS I HAVE HEARD.





    THE REASON ABOUT ALL THE ARGUMENT AND UNSETTLE OF WHICH POINT IS THE---- IT.

    IS BECAUSE ONE IS FALLING INTO THE MIND TRAP OF THE ASSUMPTION OF ONLY ONE POINT IS RIGHT.

    IN FACT, IT NEEDS TWO POINTS.

    YES! 2 POINTS.

    ONE POINT PIVOT WITH AND ONE POINT ACTIVATE WHILE ACTION/ISSUE POWER.





    OK NOW I HAVE RELEASED THE CAT OUT.

    ;D
    Does Terence Check one point or two points in the FIGTHING?
    if only one point then one can keep fighiting but still dont have the effectiveness of the ANCESTORS. see I told you so, theory and technical history is one great thing to short cut experience! Hehehehehe
    if it is two points then Which TWO points? Heheheheh


    OK, you can call me nuts. I think I am but then what happen if I am right. and what happen if this two points release related to the ----KENG GENG? hehehehehehe Ok I must be drunk!
    Last edited by yellowpikachu; 12-10-2004 at 04:06 PM.

  9. #9
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    Originally posted by t_niehoff
    It's fun to theorize why this is superior to that -- but it is just that: theory. But it's so simple: just get in there and fight and see what it is you *must* do to make things work. The demands of fighting will be your guide. For example, regardless of one's lineage and how they were taught to do things, when they actually get in and mix it up enough, they'll find that the demands of fighting force them to find the "proper" weighting (for them).
    I really don't think so. I can fight a lot of my students for years and years and for them to learn how to deal with that by trial and error will take a very long time. However if I teach them the advice I was given by my teachers who in turn were taughtthe advice they were given, then they progress much quicker. You need both the theory and the fighting.

    Ray
    Victoria, British Columbia, Wing Chun

  10. #10
    Originally posted by YongChun
    However if I teach them the advice I was given by my teachers who in turn were taughtthe advice they were given, then they progress much quicker.
    WC is supposed to be scientific, right? If so, then why are your theories based on something that someone came up with a hundred or more years ago. Wouldn't you think if WC really was scientific, it would base its pivoting techniques on modern scientific principles?

  11. #11
    "WC is supposed to be scientific, right?"

    No, it's supposed to be practical. The difference? The average high school basket ball player can score far more points than the average high school physics student (or even teacher

  12. #12
    Originally posted by reneritchie
    No, it's supposed to be practical.
    OK, then why not start with looking at what other activities that include pivoting find most practical?
    Ever see a basketball player pivot on his heel?
    Does a discuss thrower pivot on the ball of his foot or his heel?
    How about a baseball player when he throws or bats? Where is the pivot point?
    Can you imagine a tight end running a play and making a turn on his heel?
    There are many reasons for the practicality of pivoting on the ball of the foot and not all of them have to do with just the pivot.

  13. #13
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    You only should look at the applications of the various Wing Chun practitioners and not all kinds of unrelated sports. If someone pivots on the heel then show them how that's a problem.
    Victoria, British Columbia, Wing Chun

  14. #14
    WC is supposed to be scientific, right? If so, then why are your theories based on something that someone came up with a hundred or more years ago.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    ((Another pseudoscience journey)))Joy
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You only should look at the applications of the various Wing Chun practitioners and not all kinds of unrelated sports.
    -----------------

    ((Good point Ray. BTW swimmers dont use the K1 point or the heel-do they))? Joy
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    If someone pivots on the heel then show them how that's a problem.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ((I am all ears<g>))Joy

  15. #15
    Knifefighter - Valid points.

    Ray - Falacious point. There is no reason to cross off non-related activities since a) they still involve humans who b) require stability in c) action. In set theoretics, that still a rather large union.

    Joy - The problem is not with turning on the heel, per se, it's in that it's typically not taught or done properly. Turning on the heel happens when your weight is initially closer to k1/center foot and pressure is applied into you. This naturally moves the weight into the heel as a buffer while the pressure is neutralized (then the weight returns to the balance point). Even then, the turn is restricted to small degrees in application.

    If weight is *initially* in the heel (bad habit developed by solo training turning on the heel, like in forms), then when pressure is added, the weight passes beyond the heel, there is no buffer, and stability is broken forcing recovery mode or failure.

    (Note: this presupposes someone actually knows how to drive pressure into you, if people are just kickboxing with WCK, then it probably makes little difference).

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