Chan Tai San stories

[iron_silk]

When I went to Toi San in '05 and '06 and met with Jyu Chuyhn's last surviving son, it helped us to learn a lot more about him and answered many questions.

This will give you some more info about him.

Jyu Chuyhn

Lama Pai Sifu

After reading the wiki on Jyu Chuyhn I was wondering how come his surviving son only proficient in Choy Lay Fut style? given Lama is definitely the ultimate system which even Chan Tai San had to wait a long time to learn?

Just curious.

[lkfmdc]

I have no idea why Jyu Chyuhn's son doesn't do Lama, and I can't speak on that in any real way....

But I CAN tell you that Lama was something that was always taught to people who already had a background. It was NOT considered a system to start with and most of CTS's disciples have found this out the hard way while trying to run schools (makes you sort of wonder why someone has it completly BAKCWARDS hmmmm)

[WanderingMonk]

Again when he had finished learning Mok Ga from Mok Jing-Kiu. He was approximatly 43 years old and hadn't learned Lama Pai yet. His meeting with Jyu Chuyhn was an attempt to get him to finally teach him Lama. When Jyu Chuyn refused, Chan said "well, it doesn't matter, with what I've been learning, I can beat you even without it." Guess what style Jyu Chuyhn used to which caused Chan Tai-San to crawl on the ground in an effort to find his missing teeth?

maybe he was really f-in good?

I can also tell you, a teacher always knows a students weaknesses. And a student always in the back of their mind remembers when they were "nothing" and the image of their teacher as almost g'd like

chan sifu fought Jyu sifu the second time when Chan sifu was 43 years old, and have trained and fought with high-skilled teachers from other systems.

Jyu sifu was probably 60 + years old.

so, the reason for the quick victory by Jyu sifu has to be

1. Jyu exploit Chan's weaknesses
2. Jyu was an exceptional fighter who can fight at an extremely high level even at the age of 60.
3. Lama style has some very unorthodox fighting tactics that was not commonly employed in China during the time, and those who are not accustom to seeing these tactics have problems dealing with it.

option 2, that Jyu sifu was f-in good is reasonable.

but option 3 is more probable.

I can also tell you, a teacher always knows a students weaknesses. And a student always in the back of their mind remembers when they were "nothing" and the image of their teacher as almost g'd like

but, if this is the case

then, it is more psychological advantage that tilted the result.

I didn't want to my question go unasked, because TCMA do have a tendency of making the older generation fighter sound much better than the current generation. my sifu is sixty years old, he can beat me like a rag-doll. my sifu's teacher was even better, so if we go back far enough, we have the ultimate uber fighter. It never really explain "why" the teacher was able to beat the student.

[lkfmdc]

Being CTS's primary teacher, he would have had both a psychological advantage and actual knowledge of CTS's weak points and even his fighting habits

We also know from many sources that Jyu Chyuhn was very good.

And finally, yes, Lama is different than most TCMA systems, and it may have been a surprise. As open as it is today, it still surprises people when they see it up close. Very different than most TCMA

No one is saying Jyu Chyuhn was super man, but he obviously had enough of an edge to smack CTS around

[Lucas]

Jyu Chuyhn

As I finished reading this Wiki entry, a thought occured to me.

I see a contradiction in regards to what is often spoken of TCMA training, and the traditionality/practicality of said training in regards to forms.

Many times you will see people talk about "forms collectors" in such a light as to make it seem very untraditional, and that these form collectors more often than not are not "the real deal".

Then you read all this stuff about CTS, and read about this account of this teacher defeating him with a style that he knew. A style that in the process of learning required numerous forms to be learned.

Anyone see where I am going with this?

Whats the deal with that. (ala Seinfeld)

[lkfmdc]

In the Lama tradition, forms are not really that important, in fact we believe that originally there were only 3 to 5 sets and they were taught much later. Today, in some Lama and Hop Ga lineages you still see people just practicing the techniques and not the sets

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Then you read all this stuff about CTS, and read about this account of this teacher defeating him with a style that he knew. A style that in the process of learning required numerous forms to be learned.

I think you may have misunderstood. Chan Tai-San hadn't learned the Lama Pai style until he was beaten for the second time by his teacher. He DIDN'T know the style then. After their fight, THAT is when his teacher decided to teach it to him.

And I'm not sure where you are in your training; but I could learn a form in a day as I am sure many people can. As far as what David Ross had already said; Lama Pai is best learned by someone who already has a lot of experience.

Chan Tai-San had learned several styles and had also learned since he was 8 years old. And although not everyone it terrific after so much time, CTS was an exceptionally skilled person. More so than the average person who trained even longer than him. BUT, I will challenge anyone to find more than one or two people that actually TRAINED in TCMA for as long as he did. He continued to learn and train into his 50's! That's over 40 years of instruction and training. NOT ; learn for a few years, start teaching, then pic up some new info now and then, along the way.

Most of the TCMA teaches in this country, especially the Chinese one's started teaching in the late teens or twenties, and HAVEN'T trained SINCE then. They may be 60 years old now, but it doesn't mean that they had ever peaked. Chan Tai-San Peaked, and then some.

Trained since he was a kid, lived in a buddhist monestary, fought competitively and fought to the death.

Kinda sums it all up, no?

[Lucas]

So what about the in between guys? The guys that learned a good amount of form, yet still were fighters.

Do you think the amount of forms they learned hindered them in anyway? Or were they just naturals, thus the reason they became lineage holders and or important historical figures in the advancement of their art?

Also, how do you think this effected the next few generations. Emphasis for or against form.

Personally, I have learned a good amount of forms, yet only practice 2 and am now learning Taiji to make my 3rd form that I consistantly practice. There are still drills that I do out of old forms I dont practice any longer, but thats about it.

I dont even know why I stopped practicing all the forms, one day I was just tired of it and dropped them all except one style, which now I am trying to incorporate what I learn in taiji into the material I have been working with for years now.

[Lucas]

I think you may have misunderstood. Chan Tai-San hadn't learned the Lama Pai style until he was beaten for the second time by his teacher. He DIDN'T know the style then. After their fight, THAT is when his teacher decided to teach it to him.

And I'm not sure where you are in your training; but I could learn a form in a day as I am sure many people can. As far as what David Ross had already said; Lama Pai is best learned by someone who already has a lot of experience.

Chan Tai-San had learned several styles and had also learned since he was 8 years old. And although not everyone it terrific after so much time, CTS was an exceptionally skilled person. More so than the average person who trained even longer than him. BUT, I will challenge anyone to find more than one or two people that actually TRAINED in TCMA for as long as he did. He continued to learn and train into his 50's! That's over 40 years of instruction and training. NOT ; learn for a few years, start teaching, then pic up some new info now and then, along the way.

Most of the TCMA teaches in this country, especially the Chinese one's started teaching in the late teens or twenties, and HAVEN'T trained SINCE then. They may be 60 years old now, but it doesn't mean that they had ever peaked. Chan Tai-San Peaked, and then some.

Trained since he was a kid, lived in a buddhist monestary, fought competitively and fought to the death.

Kinda sums it all up, no?

I wrote that in corherantly. I mean he defeated him with a style that he (the master) knew. Not a style that CTS knew. My bad.


to respond to the rest of this post:

Now the question posed in my mind. Was the form collection in fact in place to be able to travel around, learn many forms, but in the process not actually going for the forms themselves, yet the principles within the forms?

[Lama Pai Sifu]

So what about the in between guys? The guys that learned a good amount of form, yet still were fighters.

Do you think the amount of forms they learned hindered them in anyway? Or were they just naturals, thus the reason they became lineage holders and or important historical figures in the advancement of their art?

Also, how do you think this effected the next few generations. Emphasis for or against form.

What about them? I dont' think that they were all bad, and I don't think that they were all good. It's not how many forms you learned, but how you understand them and use them.

[Chan Da-Wei]

I have no idea why Jyu Chyuhn's son doesn't do Lama, and I can't speak on that in any real way....

But I CAN tell you that Lama was something that was always taught to people who already had a background. It was NOT considered a system to start with and most of CTS's disciples have found this out the hard way while trying to run schools (makes you sort of wonder why someone has it completly BAKCWARDS hmmmm)

Agree entirely. Sifu told me that Deng Gum To did not teach Hap Gar openly. My sifu trained with him for 10 years in Hung Gar first before being accepted to learn Hap Gar from him. In our school, the foundations of Hung Gar are a must before Hap Gar is introduced.

[lkfmdc]

Most probably, forms are a relatively recent aspect of TCMA training (I'd say between 150 and 100 years ago they started to take on the "meaning" they have now). Sadly, once they DID become part of the Mo Lum they've remained so. My personal opinion is that trying to learn a lot of forms in most cases was pretty much a waste of time, yet it has become a Chinese obsession. Original Shuai Jiao didn't really have forms, yet they went and started creating them! Why? I'm not sure anyone knows

If you want to learn to fight, learn a techniuqe and drill it.....

[Lucas]

What about them? I dont' think that they were all bad, and I don't think that they were all good. It's not how many forms you learned, but how you understand them and use them.

See thats what I am trying to get at.

Does it really matter if you learned tons of forms, or just a few? If you understand your style and can apply it. Essentially, you could know 1000 forms and it would not have really been a waste of time. Because you know how to disect, understand and apply the material.

[lkfmdc]

Agree entirely. Sifu told me that Deng Gum To did not teach Hap Gar openly. My sifu trained with him for 10 years in Hung Gar first before being accepted to learn Hap Gar from him. In our school, the foundations of Hung Gar are a must before Hap Gar is introduced.

My primary base before learning Lama Pai with Chan Tai San was Hung Ga. I had done it for something like 7 years plus some Shuai Jiao and some northern. Without that base I am not sure what I would have been able to do with CTS. I certainly saw people with less of a CMA base totally lost trying to figure him out

[diego]

Agree entirely. Sifu told me that Deng Gum To did not teach Hap Gar openly. My sifu trained with him for 10 years in Hung Gar first before being accepted to learn Hap Gar from him. In our school, the foundations of Hung Gar are a must before Hap Gar is introduced.

why is hap gar so much more advanced than clf and hung ga??