Chan Tai San stories

[Ray Pina]

Thank you kindly.

[diego]

TTT

[Knifefighter]

... if he did a joint lock, you hit the floor, and he didn't
stop just because you tapped. I said it before, we flipped coins to see who would ask for an application next, because when
you did, pain was inevitable

When it comes to joint locks, the less skilled you are, the more you hurt your students when demonstrating on them. A person skilled with joint locks will never hurt their students when demonstrating.

If anyone reading this post is new to joint locks and submissions, DO NOT think that you should feel pain when your instructor is demonstrating them to you. If you ever train with a teacher who hurts you when applying joint locks, you should find a new teacher immediately. The teacher who hurts his students when demonstrating locks is either clueless or a jerk.

[BAI HE]

That's just garbage. Joint locks hurt period. Especially if you have nerve endings.
That's the reality of it. It's not kiddie **** and it's intregal to understanding how they function.

Yes, if a teacher really damages you during a demonstration? That should be cause for alarm and then you might want to think about what Knifefighter said.

[Knifefighter]

The only times joint locks should hurt is when you are sparring or fighting and don't tap in time.

Joint locks should never hurt when an instructor is demonstrating them on you. If this is happening, the instructor is completely clueless. An instructor who is competent in joint locks will be able to put exactly enough pressure so that you can feel the secured lock without feeling pain.

What is garbage is the fact that people who have only trained with incompetent instructors don't realize this.

[Knifefighter]

I’m a black belt in BJJ, so I believe I have a pretty good understanding of joint locks and submissions. As far as my understanding of anatomy, I also have a degree in exercise science of which anatomy courses played a pretty significant role.

In sparring and competitions, joint locks are applied fast and hard, but even an intermediate level practitioner learns to tap fast enough so that injuries, while they do occur, are kept to a minimum. Obviously, in a life or death fight, joint locks are taken to the extreme and the joints are blown out as forcefully as possible.

Teaching joint locks is a completely different matter. A teacher who is competent in joint locks WILL NOT have to cause pain to his students in order to demonstrate the effectiveness of joint locks. He will be able to immobilize that student so that if the student attempts to escape the pressure can be gradually increased so the student understands exactly what would happen if the pressure
continued to be increased further.

And yes, any teacher who hurts his students- even if they are advanced- either on purpose or accidentally when teaching them joint locks and submission is either incompetent when it comes to joint locks, or a jerk, or both.

As far as immobilizing someone based on anatomy, that’s exactly what a grappler does when he has side control or is mounted on his opponent and applies a joint lock from there.

[Mr Punch]

A person skilled with joint locks will never hurt their students when demonstrating. ...If anyone reading this post is new to joint locks and submissions, DO NOT think that you should feel pain when your instructor is demonstrating them to you. If you ever train with a teacher who hurts you when applying joint locks, you should find a new teacher immediately. The teacher who hurts his students when demonstrating locks is either clueless or a jerk.

The only times joint locks should hurt is when you are sparring or fighting and don't tap in time.

BJJ blackbelt, and a degree in exercise science...? What qualifications do you have in common sense?!

Here you are advising beginners to choose a new teacher if their teacher hurts them, and then you are saying that if the beginner doesn't know when to tap it will hurt him... looks like your poor beginner's never gonna get a lesson!

I agree that a teacher who regularly hurts people in training locks is probably incompetant, or in CTS's case from a different cultural perspective (hence my unanswered question on the last page about 'when did CTS stop'), but until you get used to the locks you will get hurt. This is natural.

When your muscles get used to the stress, and more importantly, you get used to knowing what's coming and when to tap, it shouldn't hurt so much. And as for your teacher, to put you in a position where you understand the lock, a lot of beginners and people who think they can muscle out of it will try to do so, thus causing pain. This is not the teacher's fault, and IMO is a good, if sharp, learning curve.

[Knifefighter]

Common sense? I think it is you who needs to work on his reading comprehension. Notice the operant words were sparring or fighting. Beginners should be very gradually introduced to sparring so they learn when to tap. And they certainly aren't going to be doing full on fighting.

Most injuries that occur are during sparring and competitions among the
intermediate and advanced students- AND NOBODY SHOULD BE GETTING INJURED WHEN THE INSTRUCTOR IS TEACHING TECHNIQUES.

I guarantee a competent instructor could demonstrate a technique on a spazzing newbie without him escaping or being hurt.

[SifuAbel]

fifth, we were Sifu Chan's advanced students - we all had background in other types of joint lock systems - we knew what we were getting into, all joking about flipping coins aside, and were looking for a more satisfying experience than we had had in other styles where we didn't feel quite convinced that the locks worked without uke's agreement or an unrealistic set-up - so he knew what our agenda was - did it ever occur to you that for the BEGINNERS Sifu Chan was a lot different? for the beginners, it was a whole different story - he treated them with kids gloves, and NO beginner ever got hurt by him in my experience in the years i was with him;

sixth, with all due resect again, where do you get off labling Sifu Chan as a jerk or as cluless? who do you think you are insulting someone else's teacher having never met him or experienced his art?

Oh lord.......
Read slowly , you'll actually get it this time. You aren't actually disagreeing, but you are being an ass.

[Knifefighter]

As far as being advanced, no matter how advanced you are, if joint lock techniques are hurting during the teaching/demonstration phase, something is wrong with either the system or the teacher.

Sparring is a different matter, but I don’t believe we have been talking about them sparring with him- or even reisting his locks for that matter. As a matter of fact, if YOU read closely you will notice that Ross pointed out he didn't let go of the lock even when they tapped.

[lkfmdc]

I’m a black belt in BJJ, .

Is your name also Elmer J Fudd and do you own a mansion and yacht? Most of the time I just ignore you, because your posts don't merit much attention. But if you are gonna make the claim, BACK IT UP. What is your full name. Who did you get your black belt from? I know plenty of people in the community and can check up on you very quickly....

so I believe I have a pretty good understanding of joint locks and submissions.
.

What you "believe" and reality might be quite different. First of all, you have a LIMITED view on joint locking, from your own admition, only BJJ. Now, of course, I can point out 2000 stories I have of people getting cranked in BJJ by NAME people, Gracies even. I suppose Rickson, Royce, Renzo are all "jerks"? No, you don't have to answer. We've determined who the jerk is.

I have a second degree black belt in Hapkido, spent a year with one of the top Shuai Jiao people in the world (Jeng Hsin Ping) and have rolled with top Judo, Sambo and BJJ people. Chan Tai San was EASILY the most skilled fighter I've ever met, PERIOD.

I'm sorry that his skills are so deept they escape your grasp. Maybe someday when you grow up you can picture more than the trees.

Let's examine in more detail the limits of your conceptions

an intermediate level practitioner learns to tap fast enough so that injuries, while they do occur, are kept to a minimum.
.

Well, first off, you just contradicted yourself, wow, injuries DO happen huh? Read above my experience with many people injured in BJJ training. By the way, those include blue, purple, brown and even REAL BJJ black belts...

Second, my guess is your entire experience appears limited to sport BJJ. Chan Tai San grew up having to use his skills for REAL, so he applied his skills as you would in the street, full power and full speed.

I suggest you pick up a book and read about Judo, you can read can't you? One of the primary problems with old Jujitsu was that it was always practiced like Chan Tai San practied it, hard and fast. So injuries kept training from reaching the masses so to speak. Randori, ie giving time to tap, was a Kano invention, a good one of course, but you're missing the point. Chan Tai San was old school.

In sport BJJ, you feel the submission coming, sure, the guy can still pull it off, but you have that "sinking feeling", that's why you can learn to get out of it. Chan Tai San's locks were instant. Now, I'm not claiming I can do this, but trust me, there are tons of people who can testify to the fact Chan Tai San did it...

Teaching joint locks is a completely different matter. A teacher who is competent in joint locks WILL NOT have to cause pain to his students in order to demonstrate the effectiveness of joint locks.
.

Again, sadly, you are lookng at the world through sport BJJ colored glasses. Chan Tai San didn't come from Rio, didn't have a tan and didn't surf. He came from a nasty, poor, violent 3rd world country (ok, Brazil qualifies as that as well, you got me!). He came from a time when you were never sure if your own students were going to challenge you. So he set a tone. I know, probably this deep talk is way over your pretty head, but it's true none the less. He wanted to leave no doubt who was in charge, and never did.

And yes, any teacher who hurts his students- even if they are advanced- either on purpose or accidentally when teaching them joint locks and submission is either incompetent when it comes to joint locks, or a jerk, or both.
.

Dear lord, I guess you're calling every single member of the Gracie and Machado families jerks and incompetants. Poor trolling on your part, you're gonna have to work on your game

[SifuAbel]

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmm, weren't you always the one advocating realistic training and having live and resisting partners?

I don't know what joint locks you do, but most of ones I know hurt when in place, even without putting on any pressure. I don't think an advanced student needs to be hand-held and coddled. You need to feel it.

[Mr Punch]

Knifefighter: your refutation of my post demonstrates your lack of comprehension in itself. Let's try it another way.

The bit I highlighted was about it hurting when beginners don't tap in time. You then inferred that I was distinguishing between sparring and demonstrations. A beginner who doesn't tap in time will not tap in time in a demonstration either. It will hurt. This is how he learns to tap in time.

If the instructor doesn't put on the lock, the beginner never learns to tap in time, and is going to get injured when he spars/fights, and therefore the instructor is being remiss in his duties to teach in relative safety.

Otherwise I agree with your statement that teachers should not eb hurting their students, and your point about introducing beginners to sparring slowly.

This, however, I don't agree with:

I guarantee a competent instructor could demonstrate a technique on a spazzing newbie without him escaping or being hurt.

Some locks hurt when you put them on, and some locks hurt when the receiver resists to any level: the key to not getting injured is to tap as they are coming on, or even slightly before in some cases.

Of course, what Ross is saying about CTS being beyond judgment by the criteria you are using due to historical and cultural differences is completely correct.

Ross: Knifefighter has a black belt in BJJ. It has been proven here before.

[Mr Punch]

Are you using operant as a specialised word from your exercise science degree?

Just wondered, I'd never heard it in that context before. If not, I think you want operative.

[Simhanada]

The webiste tibetankungfu.com has moved to:

www.lionsroar.name

This will include the Si-Fu David Ross Chan-Tai-San Lama Pai Lineage subweb. when the domain host propogates

Simhanada