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Thread: Chan Tai San stories

  1. #16
    I got so used to this sort of thing, it became auto pilot. One time, I showed up at the school of a famous Chinatown Sifu. My sifu was teaching this Chinese guy. I assumed he must be a senior student who the famous teacher wanted to get some extra stuff for. I can't tell you how many big name teachers in the US paid my sifu to come and give them some extra stuff. The list is LONG and is BIG NAMES...

    Well, Sifu Chan hands him off to me like always. Like always, I proceed, in Cantonese. Prior to this, every time I taught, I was teaching guys who only spoke Cantonese. I went on for about an hour....

    At the end of this hour, I head the guy, in English ask me, "uh, do you speak English?"

    Poor guy, never had the courage to speak up before this. Apparently, he was ABC and didn't speak Chinese. His sifu had set up the appointment, he'd shown up, been first confronted with Sifu Chan, then me! I'd rambled on for an hour in Cantonese, not one word of English... Poor bastaaaaaadddd had no idea what was going on...
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  2. #17
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    Originally posted by lkfmdc
    Sifu chan had both Chinese and American students. The Americans were the majority in the regular school, which originally was just the group class that Sifu ran out of the Gee How Oak Tin Association on Bayard. that was really because Chinese students would often come, were confronted with Sifu's personality head on, and would opt for another arrangement.

    I think sifu was even harder on his Chinese students, he expected they know every aspect of the "proper" things to do in the kung fu world, even if they were "juk sing" (ABC)... Considering the grief he gave me, an American with no previous Chinese cultural training, over stuff like the right place to put a tea cup or the correct time to pour tea, I can only imagine the sort of stuff he expected of Chinese students...

    Other times, Sifu Chan would be contacted by all Chinese groups to teach on a contract basis. Sifu Chan, as was his nature, would of course take the money, then often mess with the heads of those groups. It was like "I am Chan Tai San, and I thumb my nose at you and your thinking you are anyone"

    Sifu Chan's favorite "trick" was to take the money and then have a monkey, usually me, a lowly gwai loh, do the actual teaching. I got used to the drill. He'd tell me to show up some place at a certain time. By the time I'd shown up, Sifu had taken the money and closed the deal, he'd usually start something with the group. Then, as soon as I arrived, he'd hand them all over to me and LEAVE.... I taught in the White Crane school, and in 4 or 5 different "associaitons" over the years because of this "trick"...

    I remember two times when this created an actual argument. The head of one of the associations was absolutely not going to accept a dumb monkey teaching his members, especially when he thought he had paid for famous Chan Tai san. Sifu Chan simply told the guy, "anyone here that can beat him?" The answer was no. So Chan told him basicly "stuff it" (actually, he said something about crabs that don't smell too good and something about seeds withering for those of you who speak Cantonese)

    LMAO nice, sounds like one of the old chinese teachers i know of. sifu chan sounds like an awesome guy.
    i never heard of him before you mentioned him Sifu Ross. is Sifu Chan still alive?
    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho Mantis View Post
    Genes too busy rocking the gang and scarfing down bags of cheetos while beating it to nacho ninjettes and laughing at the ridiculous posts on the kfforum. In a horse stance of course.

  3. #18
    Sifu Chan Tai San passed away on Sept 1, 2004. He had spent the last 3 or 4 years of his life in a hospitol, badly bad health and secluded from the world. Once he got sick, he never went out. He never wanted anyone to see him as anything other than the tough guy he had always been. All of his students basicly lied when asked about him, "oh, he's doing good, he's fine"

    The last few years of my teacher's life was a difficult time for me. After completing the system with him, and after he was semi-retired, it was no longer about showing up to "work out" or to learn. It was all about personal relationships, and about confronting both the positive AND the negative things he'd done over the years. It was like having a father you never really agreed with. YOu loved him, you were comitted to him, but you were conflicted over how you felt about things that he had done.

    My teacher, like a lot of Chinese teachers, felt that those who mattered always knew the real deal and those who didn't know the "real deal" never mattered. A sifu in the martial arts community (Mo Lum) knows exactly how a real Baai Si (adoption) ceremony takes place. If you say you were adopted and don't have the right things, a real person in the Mo Lum is going to laugh his azz off at you and take you for a clown. Of course, most Americans don't know thing #1 about this sort of stuff

    A real Baai Si is a public event. It is usually announced, often in newspapers. Mine was.

    A fortune teller is consulted to find the right date, you must submit to your sifu your date and time of birth.

    A real Baai Si must have witnesses, at least one a MAJOR figure in the Mo Lum. My #1 Baai Si witness was Sifu Frank Yee (Yee Chi Wai) of the Dang Fong Hung Ga lineage.

    My other two witneses were a Choy Lay Fut teacher and a member of one of the associations.

    A real Baai Si involves you receiving a reb paper books which has important Kuen Po and which is signed by you, your sifu and the witnesses.

    To my knowledge, my sifu did four Baai Si in China before coming here. He did three official Baai Si in the US, all done in the Mineola school myself, Gus Kapros and Michael Parrella opened.

    I bring this up because my sifu, like many sifu I know, was also capable of turning to someone and telling them "hey, you got $500? I'll adopt you. Come to my house on a Thursday night with teh cash and BOOM you're adopted!"

    The senior students had a huge issue with Sifu Chan over this sort of stuff. My sifu always scoffed and laughed. He said that anyone who mattered, ie real people in the Mo Lum, would never take someone claiming to be adopted from one of these "late night cash sessions" seriously.

    And if another ignorant American believed someone was an adopted disciple because of this? WHO CARED. They didn't matter anyway...

    It was also common knowledge that my sifu had A, B, C, even D versions of everything he taught. Like I said previously, usually in 5 minutes he figured out whether you had potential or not. If you didn't, he never bothered to even try and show you the real stuff...

    This is why, from time to time, you'll see some whining SOB claim that Chan Tai San didn't know anything. He'll inevitably claim he studied with him and learned crap. Of course, that doesn't mean Sifu Chan didn't know anything, it meant he never showed YOU anything of value. There is a difference.....
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  4. #19
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    ****, thats some ****ed up ****...

  5. #20
    A Chan Tai San "class"

    Sifu Chan ran things like a lot of the old school people did.

    First, he had his students and he had the "outsiders". If you were a regular student, you had a regular monthly rate, you leanred what he thought you should learn, you put your Faith in him. He did spend more attention with the regular students...

    The outsiders were those who showed up, wanted to learn something and were charged based upon what they asked for. If you did this, you got no more, and frequently, if you turned out to be clueless, you got less....

    Among the regular students, there were the seniors and there was the group class. the seniors ran the group classes basicly while Chan tai San watched and would tweek things. The group classes were first run by Steve Ventura and I, then just me for a while, then me, Parrella and Kapros.

    He expected his seniors to be resposible and do stuff themselves. We'd show up, he'd ignore us. It was our job to warm up, do basics and then start reviewing whatever we were working on with him. If we apparead to have a grasp on what we were working on, then he'd work with you. The seniors were the only people Chan Tai San worked directly with on a long term basis. the price for that, he expected that you already knew what you were doing. there were holes you had to fill in for yourself, or, if you were smart enough to ask specific questions, he'd fill them in if you asked the right questions...

    The group classes were for Chan Tai San a way to maybe find some people worthy of being seniors and actually learning from him. Again, it was a survival of the fitest thing, you were thrown in the pool, if you swam, you'd stand out and get more. Many downed

    The seniors were shown the basics, some drills, told how to do things, then told to run the group classes. Eventually, the seniors figured out the best thing to do was start teaching some of the basic sets in the group classes. Once someone was in the group classes for a while, had learned the basics, and if it looked like they could cut it, they were made seniors and worked with Sifu Chan....

    The seniors were free to try stuff, Sifu Chan would then say good or bad, or correct it. Ventura and I always made people spar, to sifu this was a good thing. Other ideas were killed by Sifu Chan, at times our failures would prompt him to go "ok, here's what you SHOULD do'... but it was honestly hit or miss...
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  6. #21
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    Thanks David,
    Interesting stories. It brought back memories for me, except for the Chicago and LA Martial arts community of the time. LA's CMA community actually goes back much further than people think. Back to the 20's and 30's and evolving to pretty robust selection of teachers, schools and training choices today. Even well before that in private.

    Would you say there is still any of that solid, real deal, training to be found or is just too hidden in the commercial BS that passes for martial arts in most suburbs, x-urbs and strip malls across the country?
    Count

    Live it or live with it.

    KABOOOM

  7. #22
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    Great storys. I really like reading about this. I'm curious how you're classes looked like. I mean, did he have you do any conditioning etc? What were his views on sparring?
    All right now, son, I want you to get a good night's rest. And remember, I could murder you while you sleep.
    Hey son, I bought you a puppy today after work. But then I killed it and ate it! Hahah, I´m just kidding. I would never buy you a puppy.

    "Three witches watch three Swatch watches. Which witch watch which Swatch watch?"

    "Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch?."

  8. #23
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    Originally posted by count
    Thanks David,
    Interesting stories. It brought back memories for me, except for the Chicago and LA Martial arts community of the time. LA's CMA community actually goes back much further than people think. Back to the 20's and 30's and evolving to pretty robust selection of teachers, schools and training choices today. Even well before that in private.

    Would you say there is still any of that solid, real deal, training to be found or is just too hidden in the commercial BS that passes for martial arts in most suburbs, x-urbs and strip malls across the country?
    ahem............

  9. #24
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    Originally posted by SifuAbel
    ahem............
    Nah, obviously not!

    Great stories David.
    its safe to say that I train some martial arts. Im not that good really, but most people really suck, so I feel ok about that - Sunfist

    Sometime blog on training esp in Japan

  10. #25
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    ahem *cough* cough* mat *cough* cough*has azz wartz *cough* cough*


  11. #26
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    Abel,
    Be careful what you stipulate.. people might be curious as to how such an outstanding gentleman as yourself may know these things....
    practice wu de


    Actually I bored everyone to death. Even Buddhist and Taoist monks fell asleep.....SPJ

    Forums are no fun if I can't mess with your head. Or your colon...
    uh-oh, I hope no one quotes me on that....Gene Ching

    I'm not Normal.... RD on his crying my b!tch left me thread

  12. #27
    Guys, I would really appreciate it if you would NOT side track this particular thread.....

    or, in case I wasn't clear

    Guys, I would really appreciate it if you would NOT side track this particular thread.....
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  13. #28
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    great read Ross...you really should get ya boys together and catalog all the Chan Tai Shan nastolgia and then get other famous teachers to put in their two cents and put together a nice bio etc

    with the strip mall comment buddy posted it made me think of a story my teacher told me about his teacher...he was the best fighter he seen but he was scared of and didn't trust him....one student one the lotto and his teacher got one of his boys to extort him and the seniors weren't feeling that then he retired or the story goes....there is a whole side to kung fu that peeps don't hear about in the chinese opera world of chinese martial arts etc

  14. #29
    Regarding Sifu Chan's regular students, the training was very much about FIGHTING. Those who came and just paid for something, who asked for something and did a straight, I ask, I pay you give, got what they asked for, never more. And usually Sifu Chan looked down on these people, thinking their attitudes sucked...

    If you put your faith and your trust in Sifu Chan, he'd actually put effort into what you should be doing. That is why most of his students were trained differently, they weren't all the same guy, cookie cutter produced on an assembly line, so why treat them that way?

    From Sifu Chan's point of view, forms were just a way to get the techniques across and make you do them over and over again. There was NOT a particular reverance for the sets, even for the exact sequences!

    A very common thing that would happen; "Sifu, is the movement this? or This?" A technique could be done several ways, several different angles, maybe even the sequence was open to some variations....

    Anyway

    "Sifu, is it this, this or that?"

    Sifu Chan would inevitably say "yes"... as in, it is all those, and MORE

    The first set I did with Chan tai San was Siu Lo Han (lesser Boddhisattva set). it is one of the core sets (there are 5 core sets), in reality, you could well study this one form and make an entire fighting style out of it. I won't say it has "everything" but it has certainly enough to make a strong cross section. The basic shooting star fists are in this set, the basic concepts are in this set. There are four basic kicks, plenty of throws and joint locks. A few really nasty advanced "Neih Lahk Sau" tactics...

    I learned 5 versions of the same set.

    The sets became "conversation pieces", ie they stimulated talk about application and theory. A good part of the practice was taking apart and re-assembling the sets to find the applications. But the way my sifu did it was probably "unique"

    Certain applications he took the initiative to teach you, ie he'd stop you, show it to you and make sure you grasped what it was about...

    But that was HALF the process. He expected you to hold up your end, to ask him about other applications. If you had no initiative, you'd been shown very little. The best stuff by far you got by asking, by askig again, by having follow questions. Once you got Sifu Chan going, it poured out, but if you didn't make the effort, he let you go on your merry way ....

    But the other half of the equation was, you FELT the applications, there was no "show" it was all "tell"! If it was a punch, Sifu Chan PUNCHED YOU! If it was a kick, he kicked you, if it was a throw, he threw you, joint lock, you get the idea

    I regularly got kicked, tripped, thrown, poked in the eye, kicked in the groin (once, I was getting ready for a demo at NYU, I didn't even ask Sifu anything, but he walked up to me, told me that in the situation we had set up, THIS is what he'd do, BAM, kicked me square in the groin)

    I said this before, Steve ventura and I started flipping coins to see who was going to ask the next question......
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  15. #30
    Sifu Chan didn't run a school in the convential sense. When we met him, he was living in an association hall. They hall had weapons and had a roof, and that and Sifu's knowledge was what he provided. The rest was up to you.

    So, when it came to sparring, it was up to us to get gear. By the time Steve Ventura and I had met Sifu Chan, we'd been around martial arts a long time already. With the group classes, we had everyone get a mouth piece and a cup, we then had a number of boxing gloves we handed out to spar with. Sifu Chan was fully supportive of sparring and sparring with gloves. He noted that there were too many injuries bare knuckle (which we had already discovered) and noted that the best part of being in the army had been that they had gear. When he was just an orphan in a monastery in the middle of no where, the kung fu was good, but they had NOTHING

    Later, we added in shin guards. Less injuries meant we could spar more often. The irony, after we did it, that's exactly what Chan tai San said "good, now you guys can spar more, less injuries"

    A lot of Sifu Chan's training was based upon self initiative, he spoon fed no one....

    Like most traditional Chinese systems, the sparring was what most would call "stand up". Sifu taught three different ground fighting sets as part of the Lama, and the Choy Lay Fut had ground fighting sets, and Sifu also had a two man set that was liek Fukien dog fighting, with stuff like Jujitsu guard even..... but the primary emphasis was hitting and wrestling standing up...

    In sparring, if you were thrown, swept or fell, we didn't jump right on top of you, but you were expected to get right back up...

    In one of the first sparring sessions we ever did with Sifu chan around, a guy just stayed on the ground, he didn't curl up, he didn't try to get back up, he just stayed there.... Sifu Chan SCREAMED "if he stays there, HIT HIM"... I actually think that's how the ground set got started, because he actually walked over to the guy and started showing us ways to attack a guy who was on the floor....

    Ove they years, that's often how material would get started, a deficiency that popped up would prompt Sifu Chan to address it.

    The week one of the students got attacked with a knife on Mott street resulted in two weeks of knife disarms for example...
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

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