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Thread: Chan Tai San stories

  1. #1456
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    ...But when you learn about Lion's Roar history, you learn the forms were never part of the tradition in the way they were perhaps for other lineages. IE in Lama Pai and related arts each "form" was associated with certain concepts, technique strings, strategies etc... the "exact sequence" wasn't really the point as much as the core knowledge

    That being said, I can tell you that on several occassions, months, often YEARS later CTS corrected sets he taught us. Steve Ventura even "tested" CTS by messing up a sequence on purpose once to see what would happen

    Inevitably though, and back to my point, when he would correct and remember were key sequences... essential concepts, not necessarilly every movement of the entire set
    This attitude was the norm until fairly recently. It still obtains across much of the "Lion's Roar" spectrum. I have yet to see a set from another lineage that has the same form as those that I learned, even though the names are the same and the lineages share common ancestors. The sole exception to this is the basic training set, Luhk Lehk Kyuhn.

    Before we (I) started worshipping the tradition with the idea of preserving these sacred logs of information few teachers bothered to distinguish the various sources for what they taught. It wasn't important. The CLF I learned is practiced with lama style basics and our lama is interspersed with ying jaau paai.

    jd
    "Look, I'm only doing me job. I have to show you how to defend yourself against fresh fruit."

    For it breeds great perfection, if the practise be harder then the use. Sir Francis Bacon

    the world has a surplus of self centered sh1twh0res, so anyone who extends compassion to a stranger with sincerity is alright in my book. also people who fondle road kill. those guys is ok too. GunnedDownAtrocity

  2. #1457
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post

    But when you learn about Lion's Roar history, you learn the forms were never part of the tradition in the way they were perhaps for other lineages. IE in Lama Pai and related arts each "form" was associated with certain concepts, technique strings, strategies etc... the "exact sequence" wasn't really the point as much as the core knowledge

    That being said, I can tell you that on several occassions, months, often YEARS later CTS corrected sets he taught us. Steve Ventura even "tested" CTS by messing up a sequence on purpose once to see what would happen

    Inevitably though, and back to my point, when he would correct and remember were key sequences... essential concepts, not necessarilly every movement of the entire set
    There you go again, giving out the goods...
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  3. #1458
    in my mind, this idea of trying to repeat forms EXACTLY the way one's teachers, teachers, teachers etc. did it is the best way to kill a style from the inside out; people like to go on and on about "internal" practice and what it is, but utimately it's about coming fact to face with one's self-nature; the practice is not the end, it is the vehicle by which one might do so; but if if you spend your life trying to imitate what your teacher's taught, your practice will always necessarily be "external", your chances of "noticing" your intrinsic suchness will be diminished if not eradicated...well, that's my belief, anyway;

    liberation is not found in standardization; as such, in his own way, intentionally or not, because he did not conform to some idealized notion of conventionality, CTS provided the opportunity for each of us to discover ourselves as unique individuals through his teachings (the notion of "crazy wisdom" a la Chogyam Trungpa and co. comes to mind, although w/CTS, the scale may have been tipped a bit more towards the "crazy" side...);

  4. #1459
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    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    in my mind, this idea of trying to repeat forms EXACTLY the way one's teachers, teachers, teachers etc. did it is the best way to kill a style from the inside out; people like to go on and on about "internal" practice and what it is, but utimately it's about coming fact to face with one's self-nature; the practice is not the end, it is the vehicle by which one might do so; but if if you spend your life trying to imitate what your teacher's taught, your practice will always necessarily be "external", your chances of "noticing" your intrinsic suchness will be diminished if not eradicated...well, that's my belief, anyway;

    liberation is not found in standardization; as such, in his own way, intentionally or not, because he did not conform to some idealized notion of conventionality, CTS provided the opportunity for each of us to discover ourselves as unique individuals through his teachings (the notion of "crazy wisdom" a la Chogyam Trungpa and co. comes to mind, although w/CTS, the scale may have been tipped a bit more towards the "crazy" side...);
    Crazy talk !!
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  5. #1460
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    Just like a black belt simply signifies you are a complete beginner, learning forms the 'standard' way is simply the beginning. The dues you pay to earn the right to move to the higher levels.

    This is my problem with forms collectors, they can't see the forest for the trees.

    Sometimes there becomes a 'cult of style' that worships the carbon copy forms performance. Personally, I don't adhere to that concept, and find it terminal by nature.

    Kung fu lives with the man, not the style.
    Guangzhou Pak Mei Kung Fu School, Sydney Australia,
    Sifu Leung, Yuk Seng
    Established 1989, Glebe Australia

  6. #1461
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    There you go again, giving out the goods...
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Crazy talk !!
    we are just causing you a world of hurt all up and down today!

  7. #1462
    Quote Originally Posted by Yum Cha View Post
    Just like a black belt simply signifies you are a complete beginner, learning forms the 'standard' way is simply the beginning. The dues you pay to earn the right to move to the higher levels.
    which of course begs the question, one one has earned the right to be "non-standardized", at what point does it become one's responsibility to do so...

  8. #1463
    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    in my mind, this idea of trying to repeat forms EXACTLY the way one's teachers, teachers, teachers etc. did it is the best way to kill a style from the inside out;
    IMHO, one has to learn and practice the form the way one is taught until he understands the techniques, the underlying principles, the correct breathing. Then when all is understood the person becomes aware that the exact way of doing the form is perhaps not so significant any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn
    people like to go on and on about "internal" practice and what it is, but utimately it's about coming fact to face with one's self-nature; the practice is not the end, it is the vehicle by which one might do so; but if if you spend your life trying to imitate what your teacher's taught, your practice will always necessarily be "external", your chances of "noticing" your intrinsic suchness will be diminished if not eradicated...well, that's my belief, anyway;
    IMHO, there is a reason why some (not all) forms are practiced in a certain way. So, again, one should start the practice the way the teacher says and under the sifu's supervision. Once knowledge and understanding is gained then the student can "develop" the form by giving it personal touches.

    Anyway, isn't that what kung fu is all about. You learn the basics correctly, and once you master a given style then you make it "your own" or "it becomes you"?

    I guess that this is what you are saying in a different way?

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn
    liberation is not found in standardization; as such, in his own way, intentionally or not, because he did not conform to some idealized notion of conventionality, CTS provided the opportunity for each of us to discover ourselves as unique individuals through his teachings (the notion of "crazy wisdom" a la Chogyam Trungpa and co. comes to mind, although w/CTS, the scale may have been tipped a bit more towards the "crazy" side...);
    I understand and appreciate CTS's approach fully. No sifu I trained under taught in a standardized way!

    And I would agree that one of the reasons that kung fu is in such a sad state, is the fact that it has been standardized to facilitate the teachers' job.

    Furthermore, standardization has meant the taking out of essential, hard to teach, long term skills (and elements), as well, that is, assuming that the sifus in question even knew of their existance to start with.

    HW108

  9. #1464
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    Thanks for moving it here, David!

    Yes, Chan Sifu often changed sequences. He knew the general patterns, then just varied them.

    How many forms was up to the student. Each form more or less "complete" in scope of Lama movements. Basically he had 30-ish moves and strung them together, and then he added various "fancy" Jong based on Arhat/Buddhist pantheon or element or animal themes... when you dissected what he taught, it could be done in a MMA/boxing/Muay Thai format, or as "traditional" kung fu.

    For example 3 moves Chuen, Pao, Kup could be done as:

    Chuen pao kup
    Kup Pao Chuen
    Pao Kup Chuen
    Chuen, chuen, chuen
    Chuen chuen pao
    chuen chuen kup
    etc., ad nauseum, until you get it into your thick head!

    This easily translates to:

    Jab uppercut overhand
    overhand uppercut jab
    uppercut overhand jab
    jab jab jab
    jab jab uppercut
    jab jab overhand

    All you have to do is train it.

  10. #1465
    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    which of course begs the question, one one has earned the right to be "non-standardized", at what point does it become one's responsibility to do so...
    That is a very good question.

    As far as "non-standardized" teaching goes, there are some schools that teach that way from day one. Actually, it is my understanding that this is the way kung fu SHOULD be taught to start with. Of course, I don't see any harm in putting some same level students together and drilling some basics.

    As far as some karate styles are concerned, it is my understanding that they will teach in a standardized manner up to the lower dan black levels. Then the students are encouraged to "think for themselves", so to speak. Having said that, I hear that some Okinawan schools teach on a more personal level,

    I guess when one has accumulated enough knowledge and skill then one inertly feel the need to go his own way. However, any good master will tell his student to do so when he sees that the student has enough understanding and skill in the basics, he will himself tell the student to "find his way".

    This very different from what you often get nowadays where a student will take a little bit of knowledge and go on his "clueless" journey of "discovery". I guess this phenomenon holds true for other fields of study, also.

    HW108
    Last edited by Hardwork108; 01-20-2010 at 10:27 AM.

  11. #1466
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    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    which of course begs the question, one one has earned the right to be "non-standardized", at what point does it become one's responsibility to do so...
    The good teachers will give the student a perverbial kick in the butt to do it.
    The great ones do it almost from the very beginning knowing full well that everyone is unique and must be taught that way.
    Modern life doesn't allow for that way though, not in typical class environment.
    There is no set mode to do it, heck for some students it may never be an option and for some teachers, they simply can't do it.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  12. #1467
    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post

    Thanks for moving it here, David!
    no problem

    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post

    when you dissected what he taught, it could be done in a MMA/boxing/Muay Thai format, or as "traditional" kung fu.
    exactly, and why my program is what it is today


    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post

    For example 3 moves Chuen, Pao, Kup could be done as:

    Chuen pao kup
    Kup Pao Chuen
    Pao Kup Chuen
    Chuen, chuen, chuen
    Chuen chuen pao
    chuen chuen kup
    etc., ad nauseum, until you get it into your thick head!

    This easily translates to:

    Jab uppercut overhand
    overhand uppercut jab
    uppercut overhand jab
    jab jab jab
    jab jab uppercut
    jab jab overhand

    All you have to do is train it.
    now you've gone and told everyone!
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  13. #1468
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chusauli

    when you dissected what he taught, it could be done in a MMA/boxing/Muay Thai format, or as "traditional" kung fu.


    exactly, and why my program is what it is today
    I've found that many styles/arts cross at points. Stuff I learned in KF I found in many other styles/arts just under different names. That's what I find funny about some people on here. They spout that theirs is the 'secret' internal source of all knowledge, that they hold some key, when you can go and find the same exact things in others styles/arts.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i had an old taichi lady talk smack behind my back. i mean comon man, come on. if it was 200 years ago,, mebbe i wouldve smacked her and took all her monehs.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i am manly and strong. do not insult me cracker.

  14. #1469
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    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    For example 3 moves Chuen, Pao, Kup could be done as:

    Chuen pao kup
    Kup Pao Chuen
    Pao Kup Chuen
    Chuen, chuen, chuen
    Chuen chuen pao
    chuen chuen kup
    etc., ad nauseum, until you get it into your thick head!

    This easily translates to:

    Jab uppercut overhand
    overhand uppercut jab
    uppercut overhand jab
    jab jab jab
    jab jab uppercut
    jab jab overhand

    All you have to do is train it.
    Only problem I can see with that is that the best way to learn and train to be effective in jab, uppercut, overhand etc (and the various combinations) is via the methods of western boxing. If the first series translates directly into the second then surely the smartest thing to do is to abandon it and train boxing?

    I gather there are/were plenty of other things that don't translate as easily?

    BT

  15. #1470
    CTS trained boxing and absorbed it's ideas very early on.... maybe we can get mike back on here with those stories
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

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