What's wrong with Wing Chun?

[stonecrusher69]

I like to make a comment and question about what people think about the future and quality of instructions in W.C. When ever you hear about someone who is very skilled in W.C. (or really any art )they always say, oh if you think I'm good you should see me sifu.I'm nothing compared to him,so my question is if this is true then why is this so ? Also,then each generation will be less and less skillful as time goes on. I believe there are at least 3 general reasons for this.1# Students today do not train as hard as in the past .2# A lack of quality instructors.3# Sifu's are not passing down all the art for what ever reason. I like to hear what people think about this and also does anyone know of a student who surpassed his sifu? Of course if the sifu is real old or sick or has become very lazy then that does not count.

[t_niehoff]

That "schtick" is typically nonsense, and works on several levels -- as a defense-mechanism to try and explain away why it is they don't have any great skill ("I'm not so good, but my instructor . . .well, that's another story"); to try and promote their "lineage"; etc.

The idea that instructors aren't "passing down all the art" is based on the mistaken notion that skill can be "passed down". Theoreticans like to think that it comes down to knowledge (aka theory) when in reality it comes down to performance. The only reason folks have less skill than their instructors is because they haven't trained properly or sufficiently. Boxers, wrestlers, BJJists, etc. have all continued to produce increased performances from their trainees because they have continued to train; those arts that have discontinued training, like most TCMAs, is where you have the decline.

[Ernie]

Simple

People don't fight anymore

When people don't fight they have no goal, no checks or balances

So then only technicians are left, people that get fixated on the [training system] and lose sight of the [application system]

Since there are no fighters all the talkers take over and start accumulating their versions of techniques

Then they make levels and the logos and secret little ranking in door out door disciple this or that

Thus the goal has shifted from a fighting art to a certificate art

And this will continue to get worse as time goes by

People will of course argue and say [not in my system]

But that's the cancer. Staying in the bubble feeding off your school/lineage

If people could still really fight then you would see students surpassing their coaches

Like in all other fighting arts that still do some form of fighting [chi sau is not fighting so don't lie to yourselves]

Now those technicians and the students of technicians

That have never fought will continue to robotize and theorize, and fantasize

This is the progression of so called wing Chun ''artist''

Because people that fight with wing Chun skill [skill introduced by the training system but gained through experience of combat]
Are few and far between

Mainly in the earlier generations and those guys are getting old and no longer teaching with fighting in mind, takes to much work and energy to produce a fighter, much easier to produce a technician

[rogue]

Ernie, that goes for any art. Very nicely put

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Thus the goal has shifted from a fighting art to a certificate art." (Ernie)

There is it, folks....

The WINNER of the 2004...QUOTE-OF-THE-YEAR award on the Wing Chun forum.

I'd be willing to bet that the percentage of the Wing Chun instructors who are willing to teach their students ALL THEY KNOW...and do so in a FIGHTING APPLICATION ATMOSPHERE...

is appallingly low.

It's about the economy...stupid.

[old jong]

There is nothing wrong with Wing Chun.Just find the best teacher available and you will see for yourself.

[Vajramusti]

comments on Stonecrusher 69's post:

Also,then each generation will be less and less skillful as time goes on.

( Not necessarily so- another area where we could be careful about generalizing about all of wing chun))

I like to hear what people think about this and also does anyone know of a student who surpassed his sifu?

((IMO- yes-))

[Vajramusti]

comments on Stonecrusher 69's post:

Also,then each generation will be less and less skillful as time goes on.

( Not necessarily so- another area where we could be careful about generalizing about all of wing chun))

I like to hear what people think about this and also does anyone know of a student who surpassed his sifu?

((IMO- yes-))

[stonecrusher69]

yeah, I believe all your comments are valid ones...ernie post was a good one,also what about ego? I know some sifu's ( I say some again) always want to be top dog and with hold information.

[old jong]

Originally posted by stonecrusher69
yeah, I believe all your comments are valid ones...ernie post was a good one,also what about ego? I know some sifu's ( I say some again) always want to be top dog and with hold information.

That kind of teacher doesn't deserve to teach anyway.Look for a better one.A student also have to know what he wants.There are many "personal" interpretations on Wing Chun out there.
There is also a lot of negative noise by MMA wannabes,pseudo Wing Chun people ETC...It's you choice to listen or not.

[Wilson]

Ever think maybe they are just being courteous and/or respectful in their thoughts and words about their sifu?

A person's physical skills should definitely overcome his/her sifu's in time as the instructor grows older, however I would hope you can still learn many things from them or do we just disregard all the old sifus out there?

My sifu always says its his job to make me better than he is.

I agree with others on here thought that the true test of one's ability in a fighting art is the ability to fight. It is a personal choice for anyone to want to test themselves in this ability. Or, one should be truthful to themselves in their expectations of what they are learning or doing.

[Vajramusti]

Respect for one's teacher is deeply ingrained in many traditions- including TCMA. It is considered unbecoming to say that one's skill is better than one teacher's. And a traditional teacher in turn is always proud if the student "surpasses" the teacher.

It is shortsighted to withold information from a student. Sharing improves the student and a good teacher can learn from his students and thus be a step ahead of his students until winter sets in for sure.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Sharing improves the student and a good teacher can learn from his students and thus be a step ahead of his students until winter sets in for sure." (Joy)

That's a pretty good quote. We'll have to nominate that one for an award. How about runner-up to Ernie's quote?

Second place isn't so bad !

[Vajramusti]

Victor-Thanks- but No thanks. I dont compete for awards.
Besides my old school motto and not a bad one-
was "nihil ultra".

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yeah...I have a school motto also.

It's hangin' on the wall. It says...

"WINTER IS COMING".