Wing Chun and fighting-How to do it?

[Ernie]

Originally posted by hunt1
Thanks for the post Van just the type of thing I was hoping for.

Ernie you have valid points but it doesnt get any of us anywhere if no one steps up and shares how they made their wing chun work.

There was a time one I first joined this forum way back when when people didnt just talk and put others down because they dont see that they are wrong. There were discussions that you could actually learn things from.

Everyone,well almost everyone ,knows there is a transition from training drills ,chi sao or what ever to real usage. so to keep repeating the mantra 'you have to fight' doesnt help nor will it open eyes. Providing actual examples that people can relate to might do that at least in some cases.

So come on follow Vans example give us just one thing that you were taught in a form or drill that you adjusted because of sparring or fighting or playing with your buds(thats how I look at it but many think I am a card short of a deck) or whatever.

Hunt,
first your right there was a time when this was a very healthy place for all to talk and share

i miss that time as well

as for things from the form , to be honest i'm beyond that now
i don't think in tan,bong,and fook etc anymore

sure those were great guides to get the feeling of connection and structure

but they are fixed moments

i think more on timing , distance , feeling , reading a person
stuff like that

what i use at any given moment is not even a thought it just is what it is at that time and might be something else the next time
based on the person infront of me and what he offers

it's one of the reasons i never get into technique conversations , it's like disecting a corpse

argueing about a dead moment

sure in my first few years i was ver oppinionated about this or that angle

but now not so much

it's more the concept and expressing that concept in motion while some one is trying to do there thing that peaks my interest


this is my transition from the training system [ forms ,chi sau. etc]
to being able to find the moments and apply the skills

then perhaps i will go back to the begining and look at all over again with personal experience and get a deeper understanding based on what i went through

you know i'm down to share ,

i'm just in a different phase right now

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by hunt1


I think one of the problems is is that wing chun body is different tahn what many are used to and it takes a long time to reprogram.

Its one thing to learn the mechanics another to apply them. I think that when application comes many revert to what is more natural.

I think here is the issue.

For me,
learning about the mechanics is not equal to "Knowing".

without "knowing" there is no way one can smoothly apply the technics.

IE. learning about how to punch doesnt mean one knows how to punch. to be able to use/apply the punch one has to know the punch.


However,
Today martial art world has a tendency of either stop at the studying mechanics step thinking that is ultimate or going from Learning the mechanics directly going into application without going through the "knowing" step thinking that is the ultimate.

Thus, my view on this so called talker and fighter stuffs exist because.

The one who learn the mechanics without "know" cant use the art even though one think one learn the mechanics. IE. learning a SLT set is not knowing the SLT set.


The one who learn the Application straight without knowing there is a step " Knowing the body of the art" take everyone who speak about the mechanics and process as one who just learn study the mechanics because one can use a certain technics or test a certain technics which the one who only learn the mechanics cant do. Thus, one in denial about lots of ancient teaching. IE. while fighting, that fighting is different to the practice of SLT set. they are not converge. the SLT practice one thing and fighting is another thing.


And the labering of this person is this and that person it that. goes on and make the seperation and opposition and feeding the who is superior trap which needs not to happen if the full view is seen. Taking one's view as the truth without understand the existance of other path is be itself extreme act.






as for, "it takes a long time to reprogram." that is an important issue because some technics wont work without the kung. and that become a big issue in today's world of everything going the fast food way unfortunately. EI, with the capability of close range Kung, there is an immune power from being easily being taking down. Without the close range Kung, being taken down is 100%.

"knowing" is about Kung. Yes, Kung fu's kung in the classical sense. As the shao Lin or Mas Oyama describe -- without practice thousand of repetition on a proven process one simply dont know.


notice, the process is not about being able to talk theory or philosophy. such as, one can talk all day about Zen but cant even get to Theta everytime one sit in meditation. one needs the process to be able to surely get into Theta wave as one likes it.

On the other hand, without the philosophy it is also incomplete. with the same Zen example above. Zen meditation is to expand awareness. when one by tri and erro can get into certain alterstate while meditation doesnt mean one is doing expanding the awareness. so, not everything is Zen.




just some thoughts.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by hunt1


Everyone,well almost everyone ,knows there is a transition from training drills ,chi sao or what ever to real usage. so to keep repeating the mantra 'you have to fight' doesnt help nor will it open eyes. Providing actual examples that people can relate to might do that at least in some cases.

hunt1,

IMHO, my take on the weakess link which prohibit some WCner alots is the subsconcious rigid tensing between the lower back to the upper knees. This is one of the big issue of getting WCK into trouble from mobility, stablity, to power geneartion. This is a bad bad habit pick up during doing SLT without know the process of snake body.

Tensing this part habitually destroy the integration of the whole body. if this part of the body is integrate with ease then it will help the execution and flow of the momentum.

To be able to fight needs this part of the body to be well train. IMHHo.





on other hand, beside the Kung such as the Keng Geng... Thus i have heard, in the old time general fundamental knowledge of preparation for combat.

A
one has to know fighting has few general types of attact in order to be able to handle the battle zone big picture.

1, testing attact. 2, speedy attack. 3, power confrontation attact. 4, defence attact....ect


B
depend on the relative hieght, there also different approach to deal with the situation and selecting the path of trajectory and distance.
1, same height, 2, opponent is shorter, 3, opponent is taller, .......


C
different type of opponent, to decide tactic, timing....
1, the type with defence and counter
2, the type with a certain well train moves
3, the type with fast attack.
4, the power confrontation..
5,.......


D,

E,....etc



All of these above are some basic on how to handle the war zone, the paht, and the tactic , and more. These come with the training of the Woodern Dummy instead of just doing the dummy set and then doing the heavy bag and punch like a TKD.


But always the Kung is place as the most important because if one does not have the Kung to knock the other down. all of the above is useless. and the basic understanding such as the above is important both in understanding and doing drill with all different combination of possibility. so there is no one size fit all. lots of cases needs to be work out.






just a first 2 cents hope that this discussion can build up a contructive view to communicate and stop the labeling of as figther or talker.... which is not solving any issue.

[PaulH]

The Greater Self (K. Gibran)
__________________________

This came to pass. After the coronation of Nufsibaal King of Byblus, he retired to his bed-chamber -- the very room which the three hermit-magicians of the mountains had built for him. He took off his crown and his royal raiment, and stood in the centre of the room thinking of himself, now the all-powerful ruler of Byblus.
Suddenly he turned; and he saw stepping out of the silver mirror which his mother had given him, a naked man.
The king was startled, and he cried out to the man, "What would you?"
And the naked man answered, "Naught but this: Why have they crowned you king?"
And the king answered, "Because I am the noblest man in the land."
Then the naked man said, "If you were still more noble, you would not be king."
And the king said, "Because I am the mightiest man in the land they crowned me."
And the naked man said, "If you were mightier yet, you would not be king."
Then the king said, "Because I am the wisest man they crowned me king."
And the naked man said, "If you were still wiser you would not choose to be king."
Then the king fell to the floor and wept bitterly.
The naked man looked down upon him. Then he took up the crown and with tenderness replaced it upon the king's bent head.
And the naked man, gazing lovingly upon the king, entered into the mirror.
And the king roused, and straightway he looked into the mirror. And he saw there but himself crowned.

[sihing]

To postulate an answer to the question of this thread, "How does one fight with Wing Chun", IMO first you have to learn how to control your own body, its structure and reaction. Everybody that comes in fresh has his or her own way to move and react. 99.9% of the time it is wrong, therefore inefficient and ineffective. This is achieved by a multitude of things combined and performed over and over again with more intensity added as one becomes more proficient, forms, drills, theory discussion, chi-sao. This is why we have manuals and books and videos, to learn these things and absorb them into ourselves to make it a part of the whole. One thing I also did to speed up this process was watch videos of my Sifu, over and over again performing the movements. I would go out to the bar for the night, come home put in the tape of the last Demo Sifu did and absorb the rhythm, timing, structure, etc.. of what perfect Wing Chun application means to me.

Once this has happened then you have to learn how to read the opponents intentions and apply the concepts, principals and techniques learned earlier. We use particular drills that teach this and as one becomes more skilled with it the randomness and sparring increases in intensity.

Now, since we all know that not everything is going to work perfectly, one has to learn to adapt and interrupt their movements and adjust what they are doing in one moment to something else effective in the next moment. Chi-sao and experience teach this, but to tell you the truth you won't have to use this concept much, because IMO WC has so many back up and secondary defense structures/strategies and very good up front attacking strategies built into it that only when fighting very skilled opponents will those things apply, and how often is that going to happen.

Eventually I believe that an individual transcends the art totally and the Wing Chun becomes a part of them and they live the art in their everyday lives. Everything they do has a WC element in it and in essence they are practicing all the time.

Have I learned specific things through out the training and fighting? Yes, for one thing kicks are very hard to apply successfully in real fighting when the opponent is being defensive and reactive unless the opponent has no idea how to defend themselves against them. The time it takes to execute a kick, and bring it back to the ground and follow up requires more energy, time and space (HFY?) than to stay on your two feet and apply hand movements and such. Only when the opponent is advancing forward and has the intention to initiate the attacks will kicks work really well. Also, trying not to anticipate and letting the tools express themselves by themselves, and not trying to force things to come out. When I first started to spar I couldn't chain punch and ended up just punching with my right-hand over and over again and I couldn't understand it. After awhile the continuous chain punching came out and things started to work fine from there.

Just a perspective?


James

[t_niehoff]

hunt1 wrote:

From what I have been reading the fighters dont think the talkers have anything worth sharing cause they dont fight so how can they know!

At the same time the fighters keep repeating the same thing over and over and over and over and over !

This is a wing chun discussion forum so I just think it would be nice for the fighters ,some of whom seem to know everything and if they dont know it its not worth knowing, share some specifics thats all.

**Can someone that never gets in the pool intelligently discuss swimming? IMO they can discuss certain aspects, but many other aspects are outside of their experience. The reason I, for one, keep referring back that issue is because much of the nonsense, much of the noise, many of the "questions", all of the BS, etc. all stem from one thing -- folks aren't *doing* WCK, i.e., fighting with WCK's method (tools). What they are doing are exercises, forms and drills like chi sao, to prepare to do WCK. But they haven't even begun to practice WCK; practice involves use. And if they do "spar", it is against mostly other unskilled folks that are trying to do WCK too. It's pitiful. No one that fights, regardless of their method, would ever think this sort of training would lead to significant increases in fighting skill. But apparently, many believe that WCK has some magical process whereby folks can increase their fighting performance level without having to do what every other person in the world needs to do.

**Imagine if you went to a boxing forum and posted a question like - boxing and fighting, how to do it? LOL! Boxing is fighting. WCK is fighting. The very question is silly.

**Ernie made an interesting comment: "i don't think in tan,bong,and fook etc anymore . . . sure those were great guides to get the feeling of connection and structure . . . but they are fixed moments. . . . " Exactly! That shows the difference between a fighter's perspective and a theoreticians. A person will never realize that or get to that level without fighting. So they are left with arguing about what is the "correct" way to do a tan sao, etc. And since in "theory" all things are equal (can be argued), that leaves them to resorting to historical references to "prove" their claim (so-and-so did tan sao like this). It's craziness.

[yellowpikachu]

Who is not a Theorician these days?

Labering, using one's state as the TRUTH to make others fault,
No idea about what is the philosophy, theory, Processes, and training of a system but using one's view to disprove what one doesnt have idea about is also a Theorician.


IMHHO, discussion of you are this I am that is not going to go anyway




OK,

Let ask anyone or tribe who claim to be a WCK fighter who think they are the MODEL of ALL WCK that others has to learn from because they know the TRUTH WCK. Let them describe his/her power generation process in details.

with a requirement description of how to handling momentum, how to accelerate, what/which part of the body to watch for , what is the uniqueness characteristics of this method of power generation, How is this be able to use in WCK, so that anyone who following the process can repeating this power generation.

Since power generation is the core of all fighting. what fighting to talk about without getting into how to generate, make use of power , and its flow?


It will be great that there are such person be able to enlightent all of us who is junior or dont know about WCK. But, if none of the So called Fighter can do the above. Then, isnt it either they are a theorician who doesnt aware of what they are talking about, or there is no WCK fighter here but ALL TALKER? or fighter from other style? in that case since they dont know WCK why are they here?


But, I certainly love to see the processes repeatable with ' EEG wave logger, Acceleration record, heart beat logging data... etc
otherwise, it is similar to the OLD chinese saying " trust me, I know it all, I can do it, see I beat so and so sifus. I have Qi I have Jing. Just do it."


Sure, one can be the greatest in the universe, but if non of one's practice can be repeat, measure, and monitor. what is the use to ordinary human being ?


Until some one showing clearly the process of power generation which is Unque for Wing Chun Kuen and repeatable within 15 mins of learning. I am sorry to say, who is not a Theorician?

The different is just some based on history, so based on My sifu Knows it all or I know it all or I learn the real Wing Chun Kuen. Same old Same old feeding EGO and trying to force the whole universe to bow to one's ego deal. All Theory without Process. All Brute force without technology.

As the Chinese saying, " in composition of Essay, everyone will say they are number one. in martial art, no one is willing to be number two" same old same old Chinese backward patern even it is already 2004.

Look at the hi tech, with the proven Process people has already build MP3 or Ipod getting smaller and smaller in size every months. So, Process that is important instead of following that Chinese old patern-- theory and fighing....etc . isnt it all are Theory without technology process?

just some thoughts. Ignore my post if you dont like my
post.

[kj]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
**Ernie made an interesting comment: "i don't think in tan,bong,and fook etc anymore . . . sure those were great guides to get the feeling of connection and structure . . . but they are fixed moments. . . . " Exactly! That shows the difference between a fighter's perspective and a theoreticians. A person will never realize that or get to that level without fighting.

I 100% agree with Ernie on that point. I too have a very hard time of conceiving of my performance in terms of "techinques." I just don't operate that way. Obviously then, I am fighter, LOL.

It's craziness.

I've yet to meet a person who is fully sane.

Regards,
- kj

[Ernie]

Originally posted by kj
I 100% agree with Ernie on that point. I too have a very hard time of conceiving of my performance in terms of "techinques." I just don't operate that way. Obviously then, I am fighter, LOL.
Regards,
- kj

KJ in the next K1 !

i'll work your corner

UM KJ I never claimed to be a fighter , i just don't have put much stock in non proven stories of how some non educated farmers beat each other up in china 1,000,000 years ago and then some greedy kung fu marketing masters jumped on the band wagon and made up more non proven stories of the secret to supreme skill

but like you said people are crazy what ever silly blue print they want to follow , yet they can not duplicate the skill[ the non proven story skill ] , but will still follow the blueprint that yields no results after 20,30,40 years

and then try and convince others that it's ther way to go ! haha

yep crazy people out there

but it would make for a great shaw brothers movie !

thank god we are in a put up or shut up society

but please ignore my post and happy holidays

[Vajramusti]

KJ sez:
I've yet to meet a person who is fully sane.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
((<g> I have. Wonder of wonders. I pass by a house every day where a man possibly around 50 lives by himself. Neither fat or thin. Apparently physically healthy. Does not seem to go to work.
Occasionally brings home groceries from convenience stores and hasa cip of coffe in a coffee shop- with an occasional Hamletian speech.
Always has a smile on his face. Does not seem to be interested in maintaining eyecontact for very long.
He works around his house, driveway and yard. Old Jong does perched not have to wrestle him down.
He changes his scenery regularly around his house. On the back of his pickup truck-he has currently painted "Brinks". On his dirt driveway he hasa sign- no skating allowed. Ona tree trunk he has a sign- his advice to the world..."work it out". He has a screen door witha flyswatter leaning against a bush- with an arrow and the letters"nowhere".On some rainy days he has has a bathtub with a shower head balanced on the roof next to the chimney. He sometimes jogs with a colorful jogging outfit in the bicycle path- sometimes witha sign "Watch out for pedestians".
When he walks on the street sometimes he hasa ceramic parrot on his shoulder to whom he explains the weather and the need for watching out for cars.

Apparently a perfectly sane man in an insane world.

I hope that an insane person does not hurt him, arrest him, put him in a hospital or urge him to follow some dogmatic path.
Thus far appears to be a free man- at least comparatively.

[yellowpikachu]

KJ sez:
I've yet to meet a person who is fully sane.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

there is a great chinese saying: " the half kati laught at the eight once ( a chinese kati has 16 once) ". How wise was the ancient Chinese speaking the TRUTH about the So-called Theorician and Fighter


What a wonderful world! EGO Never changes.

[PaulH]

"Your thought differentiates between pragmatist and idealist, between the part and the whole, between the mystic and materialist.
Mine realizes that life is one and its weights, measures and tables do not coincide with your weights, measures and tables. He whom you suppose an idealist may be a practical man.


You have your thought and I have mine.- K.G."

[kj]

Originally posted by Ernie
KJ in the next K1 !

i'll work your corner

I'm counting on it, Ernie!

UM KJ I never claimed to be a fighter ,

It wouldn't be me trying to categorize you Ernie. To the contrary, my point was that there are inevitable risks in attempting to definitively or neatly categorize people. Like most of us, you're [obviously] much more interesting and complex than we [the general “we”] often allow ourselves to acknowledge or give each other credit for.

A wise person I once knew summed it up this way: "If you absolutely must label someone, label them only by their name."

but please ignore my post ...

Not at all. We all have things to say, experiences or perspective to share, and things to get off our chests. Somewhere out there exists a wisdom far greater than any wisdom we alone possess. I'm not implying it's the "communal" wisdom though, LOL.

and happy holidays

And to you and yours.

Regards,
- kj

[kj]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Apparently a perfectly sane man in an insane world.

He could indeed be the one, Joy.

Still, I am reminded of a quote that recently happened across my desk: "Everyone seems normal. Until you get to know them." On this count, please forgive me a hint of healthy skepticism.

Regards,
- kj

[t_niehoff]

kj wrote:

I too have a very hard time of conceiving of my performance in terms of "techinques."

**Tell me, in your "performance" of what -- forms or drills?