Contributing to bad kungfu

[FngSaiYuk]

red5angel brought up a question in lkfmdc's thread on his sifu Chan Tai San-

Originally posted by red5angel
Ross admits the guy taught people the wrong way because they weren't "in the door" students. Ok, I can understand this elitist and short sighted view many traditional chinese instructors had or have. however, you can't argue for one minute that this doesn't contribute to the crap that is traditional kungfu today. For fukk sake Ross describes watching an entire class doing footwork wrong! The very foundation of a lot of martial arts and they were taught wrong because of some outdated method of thinking that only a few shoudl get the real thing?!

A) I wanted to pull this into a separate thread so the orignal thread is not hijacked

B) Clarifying the real question-

I think the real question here is, should REAL kung fu (as defined by Ross' idea of REAL since this is the orignal context of red5's post) only be taught to those judged as 'worthy'?

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
I think the real question here is, should REAL kung fu (as defined by Ross' idea of REAL since this is the orignal context of red5's post) only be taught to those judged as 'worthy'?

My thoughts-

MOST people who take up martial arts are not looking for REAL kung fu. What they're looking for is a method of getting healthy, perhaps some self defence skills and more often, a hobby.

Those hard core students who have what it takes to learn REAL kung fu really are rather rare and so it's understandable that there are an elite few who are 'in the door' and have access to REAL kung fu.

[David Jamieson]

only laziness and/or indifference will prevent you from attaining kungfu.

when you gain experience and you know what you are doing, you will also see the errors in what you are doing.

In time, the deceptions you have been fed will become transparent and you will move forward.

[Ray Pina]

There are always the "In" and "Out" in everything. In high school football, there is no way that third string players are treated the same way as first string players.

Granted, we all drill the same, but it's the little stuff and in martial arts it's no different. We all drill the same, but it's the little stuff before or after class, the details.

But what seperates the "in" from the "out"?...... Desire! I've been involved in sports my entire life. I wouldn't say I was an exceptional athlete yet I made captain and first team all state. It was my desire. I wanted it. I worked at it. I wouldn't settle for less.

Most martial artists show up, do what is asked (often less, getting tired and stopping early, etc) and go home. How can you expect this person to get as much as the one who is training to fight?

[Ray Pina]

I also blame the students. How many Kung Fu guys truly test themselves? I know so many guys who have "completed" Hung Gar and Wing Chun and will go down the list of forms that they know.

You think it's that easy? They fell for the BS that they were looking for. You can't become a fighter without tasting some blood .... yours or theirs.

So then, how many people really want to train?

[red5angel]

here's the deal guys. Why don't we cut the mystical and elitist crap, it's old skool and not worth having around. It wasn't worth having around back in the day much less today. The way I see it is this - either you teach, or you don't. If you want to teach some people crap, then your selling out, plain and simple.
Someone doesn't want to work for the skill, then don't teach them,it's that simple. Instead, you're going to let them half ass it and then watch them water down the real deal with their half assed crap that YOU fed them. As far as I'm concerned there is no one to blaim at that point but the teacher. Instead of being responsible, and an adult, and turning away someone who just doesn't want to put in the effort, they took that persons money and mislead them, decieved them, contributed to the dilution of the art, period.
There's no arguing that. It's deception, it's bullsh!t and it hurts nothing but the martial arts when it's done. I've heard all the crap about honor and wokring for it and making you earn it and all that crap but it's worthless drivel and it contributes the garbage dreamer crap that people are constatnly complaining about on this forum.
It's wrong, period.

[FngSaiYuk]

Yep, that's another point I had intended to bring up - it's the same in most things. There are a FEW people who try hard enough to reach elite levels, and there are almost always elite levels. MOST people don't try that hard in EVERYTHING they do.

[red5angel]

efist, no offense but I don't want to turn this into another MMA vs TMA thread. I don't want to hear anything abotu students testing themselves in real combat, sport fighting, or whatever other pedestal anyone else is on. I asked my questions on that other thread and they have to do with the teachers and essentially what almost amounts to a consipiracy to decieive and mislead in some families and circles of martial arts. I understand the issues of who wants it and who doesn't, but that's not what this is about.

[David Jamieson]

rule of thumb is for every 1000 practitioners, there will be 1 who will continue with kungfu practice for life.

[David Jamieson]

not that rules of thumbs are 100% accurate, but they are a pretty good ballpark figure.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by red5angel
here's the deal guys. Why don't we cut the mystical and elitist crap, it's old skool and not worth having around. It wasn't worth having around back in the day much less today. The way I see it is this - either you teach, or you don't. If you want to teach some people crap, then your selling out, plain and simple.
Someone doesn't want to work for the skill, then don't teach them,it's that simple. Instead, you're going to let them half ass it and then watch them water down the real deal with their half assed crap that YOU fed them. As far as I'm concerned there is no one to blaim at that point but the teacher. Instead of being responsible, and an adult, and turning away someone who just doesn't want to put in the effort, they took that persons money and mislead them, decieved them, contributed to the dilution of the art, period.
There's no arguing that. It's deception, it's bullsh!t and it hurts nothing but the martial arts when it's done. I've heard all the crap about honor and wokring for it and making you earn it and all that crap but it's worthless drivel and it contributes the garbage dreamer crap that people are constatnly complaining about on this forum.
It's wrong, period.

This has been brought up before. Basics to it is, teachers need to pay taxes, rent, food, etc. just like everyone else. Since there is a wide base of people who are interested in martial arts as a hobby and for health, and VERY FEW who are really really into it and are willing to put in the amount of effort and PAIN involved, it's only natural that teachers will have different levels of teaching that are completely based on the STUDENT's capacities.

As Ross' thread shows, even the best fighters and teachers are still human.

Also, given humans being how they are, with the large base of people interested in martial arts yet not willing to put in the dedication required, it's inevitable that we end up with the mcdojo/mckwoon's and worse.

It's PEOPLE that contribute to bad kungfu, just as in anything else.

[red5angel]

it's only natural that teachers will have different levels of teaching that are completely based on the STUDENT's capacities.

This has nothing to do with it. If you feel you need to sell out in order to make a living then do it by adopting aerobics classes or some other gimicky crap, and don't mislead hundreds of people into thinking you're giving thems something you're not. Either you teach them what you advertise or you become part of the problem period.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by red5angel
This has nothing to do with it. If you feel you need to sell out in order to make a living then do it by adopting aerobics classes or some other gimicky crap, and don't mislead hundreds of people into thinking you're giving thems something you're not. Either you teach them what you advertise or you become part of the problem period.

You're ignoring human nature. People almost welcome being misled just so they get something nice and easy. Instant gratification, short attention spans, all that stuff. People don't really want the truth, they want to be comfy and feel that things are good and working and all that.

Check out peoples attitudes during the recent economic depression...

[red5angel]

no I'm not actually, my point is that this sort of behaviour only encourages and contributes to the bad habits of human nature. All this crying about this and that not working and this not being trained right and so on and so forth. You guys keep trying to spin this to the students and it's not about the students.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by red5angel
no I'm not actually, my point is that this sort of behaviour only encourages and contributes to the bad habits of human nature. All this crying about this and that not working and this not being trained right and so on and so forth. You guys keep trying to spin this to the students and it's not about the students.

OK, I agree that it's not just about the students, however you're ignorning my points that teachers are just as human as students. And all the good stuff has been acquired through decades of dedicated, strenuous and PAINFULL training. It's only human to bother attempting to teach this stuff only to those who show the dedication to actually learn it.

And again, as far as advertising a kungrobics kind of class, you'll still end up losing a large number of potential students who want to think that they're learning kungfu (yet who aren't up to putting in the kind of dedication required).