Contributing to bad kungfu

[FngSaiYuk]

Ford,

What I'm reading in between your lines is - if the basic training is too difficult to support a school, then the training methods are incorrect?

[Ray Pina]

But I think it is that way. These guys are making it sound like these masters discriminate blindly. It's not so.

You come in and you are shown something, probbaly pretty much the same type of thing every newbie is shown. Do you get it? Do you digest it? OK, you get more. So on and so forth.

Personally, my master teaches everyone the same. His thinking is, maybe you don't "get it" now, but build up the basics, the foundation and one day you might get a big light bulb.

Of course if you're a disciple, or like his adopted daughter who lives at the school, you're around all the time, of course you get more. It's not intentional, it's just natural. You're there. You're interested.

How many people here feel like they trully have been robbed? Have put in so much effort that their teacher should've been given them more? That they mastered all that they've been given?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I also understand showing less than the best on video. Hell, if I bought a Gracie video I'd expect to see the basic, the general idea, but I'd be sure that they have some special training, some special leverage that only more advanced students (say brown and up) get. I'd go even further and think there's stuff that hasn't left the family. They should keep some stuff for themselves.

This is one of the reasons the Torrance Gracie has lost the majority of its advanced students to other BJJ teachers over the years.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
I think the real question here is, should REAL kung fu (as defined by Ross' idea of REAL since this is the orignal context of red5's post) only be taught to those judged as 'worthy'?

You can only teach "fake" stuff in a sitiuation where there is no pressure testing against others from the outside. Can you imagine trying to field a basketball team where only 'fake" basketball was taught to the players?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
Before you know it the two schools are pitted against each other.

And that's how your techniques evolve even further.

[red5angel]

Oft times the school is opened for survival.

bad idea in this day and age, most of the instructors and school owners I know have a day job, or atleast a rich spouse. If you have to seel out, or choose to sell out just to keep your school supporting you I have to question your motives. I'm not saying you can't have a successful school and not sell out, and I'm not even saying that you can't start a successful school, and offer a couple of aerobics/taichi for health type classes. I'm saying that if you don't want to teach someone, or don't want to teach what you advertise, then don't teach.


efist - your instructor seems to be the kind of guy who doesn't so much misdirect as just withhold. I can handle that, he's not misleading those who come through the door, he just wants to see if you got what it takes to stick it out.

I think it's BS now-a-days and being mired in useless tradition will only bring down the traditional arts.

In my opinion Ford, this is exactly what this sort of practice is doing. They teach crappy techniques or the "wrong" techniques and it causes all sorts of issues. Look at the energy spent on arguing who's stuff is the real deal as it is, much less add this sort of crap into it.

These guys are making it sound like these masters discriminate blindly. It's not so.

While I'm sure there is some "blind" discrimination going on, my point is really to say that misleading the populace is inexcusable. Some people want to write it off as that's just the way it is or was in their time. Well, In my grandmothers time it was ok to hate people who weren't the same color as you but I won't allow my grandmother to tell racist jokes or make racists remarks while I'm around. I won't stand for it and times change, and they have to move on as well as everyone else. I don't care if the chinese in the old country were ok with being mislead, I'm not, and I"m pretty sure most americans aren't either.

How many people here feel like they trully have been robbed? Have put in so much effort that their teacher should've been given them more? That they mastered all that they've been given?

Just imagine this: Imagine that your master has passed away, and you go to train with another instructor, or someone who was as close or closer to him. You get to the school, you put on your silk pajamas ad you start warming up doing a particular form/drill. The other guy watches you for a moment then stops you and shows you how it's "supposed" to be done. He knows because that's what he was shown by the old guy before he passed away. Now what if what he shows you is verifiably better then what you have?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
OK, I agree that it's not just about the students, however you're ignorning my points that teachers are just as human as students. And all the good stuff has been acquired through decades of dedicated, strenuous and PAINFULL training. It's only human to bother attempting to teach this stuff only to those who show the dedication to actually learn it.

okay, so your teacher starts showing the the wrong way to do your techniques and applications. After two years of training, he decides you really are dedicated. He now has to show the the right way, and you basically have to start completely over, because you spent the past two years training crap...What sense does that make?

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by red5angel
my point is really to say that misleading the populace is inexcusable.

Heheh, stay away from politics, the media, big corps... hmmm... mebe there's a reason for those hermit in the mountain legends...

::grin::

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by SevenStar
okay, so your teacher starts showing the the wrong way to do your techniques and applications. After two years of training, he decides you really are dedicated. He now has to show the the right way, and you basically have to start completely over, because you spent the past two years training crap...What sense does that make?

OK, bear in mind that my arguments stem off of the orginal context of Ross' teacher - in the stories, he's not teaching 'crap' to his students. His seniors instruct his students and the students that show real initiative and dedication get promoted.

The 'crap' was taught to people who aren't looking to be his students, but rather are looking for a particular set, or some other fairly specific thing.

Since the impression of these people looking only for something specific is that of little real respect for the man, it's rather human to give the person what they think they want and take the cash.

No, it's not noble, no it doesn't display high character and ethics... and it may not be 'right', but it's how people are.

I find there a considerable gap between present reality and any kind of utopian ideals of how things should be. Gap as in, no realistic path between present reality and the ideal.

[Ray Pina]

"You can only teach "fake" stuff in a sitiuation where there is no pressure testing against others from the outside."

....

Knifefighter, no doubt my ground game has improved the year or so this gentelam trained with me because he gave me the opportunity to test and roll around. But, in the end, we had different ideas about our training.

There is no doubt in my mind that I will face the Gracie school when I'm ready. I'll have to. They have the name and they're just a few blocks away.

[Ray Pina]

Red, you make some good points.

One of the things that's unique about my teacher is that he teaches formula, not form. I feel like I'm starting to "get it" now, to where I could move and go away and continue my study on my own, but I would still be missing a lot of course. The one thing I would want more of would be internal and to study weapons with his daughter.

As far as the fighting over who has what, I'm sure a lot of people had their eyes opened a little over Mr. Ross posts about his master. There are folks like this who live a quiet life and never show a thing to anyone, or a very few. They don't care what people say up on Kung Fu boards, they're content with their own study.

It is sad that not every school has good instruction, or even so so instruction. The best that could be said I guess is buyer beware.

In the case of high level masters, I don't look at it like they're selling me a car. I look at it as if they are sharing their treasure with me. To even open the chest in front of me and let me see it .... Wow. And then to let me take some home, piece by piece, a few times a week. Man, I am grateful already.

[Ford Prefect]

If they are "sharing" something with me, then I will treat it as such. They aren't though. I'm paying them to provide me with a service. I don't expect professors to purposely mislead students in the laws of physics because they aren't going to future physicists. I don't expect basketball coaches to mislead the majority of their kids in the proper mechanics of a jump shot because they aren't going to a D-1 school or the NBA... It's really not acceptable in any place I can think of off the top of me head. I don't see why people think it's acceptable there.

Different people might get shown more because they show up more or get things quicker. This is natural. Purposefully misleading though... Complete BS.

[lkfmdc]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect


I'm paying them to provide me with a service

This is the American way, it is NOT the TCMA way, and it's why you get taught BS....

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
This is one of the reasons the Torrance Gracie has lost the majority of its advanced students to other BJJ teachers over the years.

That is a trueism for many schools in general. They don't know where to draw the line when it comes to "the door".

In some schools BBs tend to feel a sense of abandonment when they reach BB since their school in question might not have an ongoing program. A "graduate school" if you will.

[SifuAbel]

The "I'm paying for a service." mentality is one that should be set on fire and then buried quickly after. This mentality puts the teacher of any skill on the level of a maid or a nail groomer(not to knock the services, they are just different). You pay for instruction in college, yet you could fail and not be graduated and it wouldn't be the teachers fault. The only real burden a college professor has is to present the information in a timely fashion. I remember a time in this country where you had to "try out" for any team sports, little league etc. Now little jimmy can suck totally as long as they are full up to their dues.

As far as the MA teacher is concerned , you are paying for a spot on the floor. It doesn't gaurantee you a spot on the "squad". This is where the mcdojo spreads the butter in promising that you will be at X level in Y time NO MATTER WHAT.

Perhaps CTS went a little far with the waterdown. You can teach simply and still give something that is worthwhile. Some teachers may change aspects of training while still makeing that change useable even at a basic level. Not really the WRONG way but a SIMPLER way and only to a point.