Tai Chi Punching

[houstonwriter.c]

I'm interested in hearing what various people think is similar or different between punching in Chen or Yang Tai Chi and punching in some other kung fu styles, or other arts in general. Chen or Yang power generation, theory, practice methods, anything. What are the basic concepts and keys to real power?

[shang wu]

As far as punching goes in IMO punching is punching. What is different is that in most Taiji training in the US that I have been exposed to you don’t do the amount of focused training on this one specific skill as you do in other arts. Until you are hitting something all discussion of power generation is purely academic, as you don’t have any real feedback to work with. We all know the path of root theory, power generates in the feet develops in the legs directed by the waist ect,ect. But this is something that needs to be experienced and distilled with practice and if you’re talking about punching then you need to hit something.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Art is correct in that without contact we have no feedback as to what actually occurs when the punch is delivered.. having trained in several external styles and finally focusing on the internal, i notice a big difference in punches.. much of the external is concerned with arm power and secondly twisting power (waist/legs).. Taiji also focuses on waist/legs but also uses simple kinetic energy of the whole body moving forward as the weight is shifted into the punch.. the shifting of the weight from a rear weighted stance to a front weighted stance is loaded with kinetic energy (like putting your feet under the heavy bag then pushing it away and letting it hit you full-force).. then, as your weight shifts forward, you also twist the waist accelerating the striking hand.. just as the punch nears its target, the front leg brakes the (let's assume a left foot forward stance) left side of the pelvis while the rear (right) leg pushes the right side of the pelvis forward, rotating the spine and shoulders in a whipping action.. the arm is relaxed but with substance and is whipped toward the target.. here, correct timing is crucial, the frame (skeleton) very briefly locks into place to add support to the impact of the punch.. then, just as quickly, the frame relaxes and prepares for the next technique.. this only addresses the physical movement of the punch, involving Qi is a seperate issue, too long for this post..

Practice on a heavy bag is very useful in adjusting timing and frame for maximum effect.. ultimately, you should see the heavy bag (Muay Thai type, long and sort of narrow) bulge substantially from the whipping impact but not much overall movement.. big overall movement, like huge swings of the bag are commonly associated with external energies.. while huge bulges, almost folding the heavy bag with little swing, are commonly associated with internal energies..... or, at least, that's how i have been taught.. and it works well for me..

Be well..

[unixfudotnet]

like was said, a punch is a punch just we use exact body mechanics and internal energy, which hard styles use as well, just later on in their training where we get it from the get-go.

chi development also has a side effect of proper body mechanics. so really any punch or strike will have proper body mechanics that has chi power behind it, because it is the foundation in all we do

[scotty1]

To be honest I don't think I've ever been told how to punch by my teacher, "just hit it", lol.

I have been instructed in how to do the conditioning we do for our punching though.

And I wasn't a complete beginner when I started.

But I don't know, we've never really gone into the mechanics of it REALLY deeply.

I think the correct mechanics are supposed to be manifested through correct training.

[unixfudotnet]

maybe you have a bad teacher, or probably they just want to you just do the movement without thinking too much about it yet *shrug* hard to tell. different teachers teach differently, some are better than others. hard to tell online

[scotty1]

lol, I'm not concerned about my teacher.

"or probably they just want to you just do the movement without thinking too much about it yet "

I think that's it.

As I said before, "I think the correct mechanics are supposed to be manifested through correct training."

Maybe it's not deemed to be something you need to think too much about. Just through doing the conditioning training I can punch harder than I could when I kickboxed. So something's working, and it didn't require an explanation.

But like you say, different teachers do it different ways, and different students need different things, so as long as we're all punching hard, it doesn't matter, lol

[SPJ]

The secrets are actually in your feet. It is called the root Jin.

There are 2 types: Deng and Ta.

Deng is to use your 5 toes to push and grab on to the ground. There is a counter energy produced. You then use the rest of your body structure (Shen Fa) to transmit or relay.

Ta is to your heel side to "step" or "stomp" on the ground.

You may watch the feet of a practitioner of Tai Ji or other style. If there is no Deng or Ta, there is no root. The rest is a fake.

In Tai Ji, you use your whole body to move your arm or Yi Shen Dai Bei.

In Tong Bei, you Deng when you sway your arm up and you Ta when you sway your arm down. The steps are called Ta La Bu. You move your front foot forward and drag the rear foot.

In Tang Lang, it is called Tuo La Bu.

In Hidden punch (Yen Shou Gong Zui), your weight is on your right foot at first. When you punch your right fist forward at the shoulder level and shift your weight to your left front foot; you have Deng Jin on your right foot and Ta Jin on your left foot.

[SPJ]

On Tang Do Jin;

If you do a circular punch, or a sudden jerking strike with the back of your fist,

Such as Ban Lan Zui in Yang Tai Ji. Yang Lu Chan used it a lot to defeat punchs and kicks. This move made him unbeatable.

You still watch for your Deng and Ta in your feet.

The 10 toes need to grab on the ground. The rest of the body has to be relaxed all the way.

[houstonwriter.c]

SPJ, Thx!

Ta is to your heel side to "step" or "stomp" on the ground.

This is one thing that prompted my interest. I see the instructors and seniors at my school punching and hear the little stomp but it's so fast it's hard to tell what's happening. Then when they slow it down and explain it to me I get it intellectually but then mine still sucks

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The stomp, as i understand it, bounces your internal energy off the ground while at the same time accumulating earth energy.. the result is a ripple of energy, both physical and Qi, that very rapidly flows along the "proper alignment" to manifest great power at the application.. There is a great video of Cheng Man Cheng pushing where he launches an opponent quite a distance with a barely noticable rear heel stomp just as his arms seem to only twitch.. it seems that he lifted his heel less than 1/2 inch and thrust it downward with perceivable force.. i've been working on that for years and it's no easy feat.. timing, intention, alignment, and opportunity rarely intersect for the full effect, for me anyhow..

Be well..

[Ray Pina]

If there's one thing I learned in 2004 is that punching is not punching.

My teacher taught me a type of wave punching which comes from taiji. The theory behind it is that staight punching is easy to cut, or chop if the guy is taller.

In this punching the hangs are held close in a guard and the firsts go out but the power is generated from a wave-like motion from the elbow but fueld by the shoulder and of course the foot.

It is multi-directional and can be a hook, uppercut, cross, ect. but it tends to land on the incoming strike from underneath.

For Hsing-I guys, you can say its striking going into Tiger Heads.... kind of hard to explian, but easy to understand once its shown, and so so in picking it up.... one or two classes.

[Happykiwi]

There are no punches in Taiji, in the way we understand a punch to mean a strike at great force. However, there are the eight methods of power- peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lei, zou, and kao. If you were to punch how can you be using listening (ting) energy?
To use ting jing, you must first be in touch with your opponent. Force is normally issued at the point of contact. If you are already in contact, why use a punch?

[shang wu]

Are you saying there is no punching in a Taiji player’s arsenal of fighting options?
Drilling punches off of contact is easily done. Why would a martial art not retain this option? It is plainly seen in Yi Lu and Pao Choi from Chen style. I will agree that it is not the same as western boxing or even punching from outer ranges that you see in other Chinese martial arts, but it is still nonetheless punching.
. As for ting jen, listening energy has no distance, sensing your partner must start before contact and remain active after.

[SPJ]

How to sense the opponent's Jin;

1. If without contact, it is called "seeing". You may estimate by the opponent's posture and moves.

2. To listen, you have to use a small Peng Jin to contact and test the opponent's Jin and then you know. It is called "listening" or Ting Jin.

You circularly move up your forearm to contact that of the opponent, and you also rotate a little around the forearm once in contact. You use a small circular Jin to merge into the opponent's Jin. Since the direction of a circular Jin changes all the time, at the moment of contact, you have a Jin that is in the same direction as that of the opponent. You have to use a light Jin to contact or touch (Zhan).

Since your posture and circular momemtum is still going, you may redirect the opponent's Jin into a different direction. This is how a circle beats a line.