Bung Bo apps

[JadeMantis]

Many Thanks for your help and advice MantisifuFW and GermanMantis.

I believe to ensure you have a full understanding of our art then the terminology must be learnt along side the techniques. This is just one more facet of a wonderful life changing experience.

I would be very interested in your book Steve when it is published please keep us updated.

I am sure I will have a few more questions later as I record the forms and would be greatly appreciative if you could kelp me out.

Many Thanks again

Darren

[MantisifuFW]

Hmmm it seems that we have different characters for the elbowstrik. I'll have to look it up.

GermanMantis, I think, (though I am always open to correction) they are alternate views of the same character. Please see:

www.zhongwen.com and go to the pinyin section. If you type in "die" you will see both you version and the one I used.

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[GermanMantis]

Ah thanks Steve! This gives me a little bit relief. I think sometime the names of the branches even in HK varies, but i may be wrong.
Many thanks for your explanation!
Best regards,
Chris

[German Bai Lung]

I think it´s better to be careful with such terms as wrong or right in an absolute manner. There are in fact many different solutions and also applications in this case.

To your questions, whoknowho, you first must realize: the kick is not being applied while pulling your opponent!
The kick is applied, in our version of 7*, while blocking and counterattack with a positive/negative palm (Yam Yong Jeung). This will focus the attention of the opponent to the upper part and you be able to make a surprising attack with your feet! (See also: ba gang/the eight hard article in the MQ) Also the kick is hidden by the fact that is performed the way it is: behind your rear leg! This make him hard to avoid! As I mentioned before: I did apply this Kick in fighting. And it works.


To your second question:
the faning move is the same like the move with seung diu sau and the jau toi: you grap your opponent´s arm, hit to his head with your other arm and while focusing the attention once again to the upper part you move your leg behind the opponents leg and perform a sweep.
Of course ther are other applications possible!

[holymantis]

i have to agree with you jochen ,
the kick is the surprise package in my linanage as well.
and it work's well



holymantis

[German Bai Lung]

All good questions, but I must say: answers are not difficult to find!

1: Same question you can ask within every technique! "What if the opponent ..." answer is: be faster! And know a next move! There is no final solution, no technique without the chance of being countered!
To be explicit: if you are aware of your opponent seeing you preparing for the kick: don´t apply it! The kick is for surprising only! Also it is that short, thats nearly impossible to counter with the technique you described.

2: the faning hand slaps to the ear of the opponent. The weight is on the back-leg because to prevent hits to the head and to use your weight to pull the opponent on his frontleg. I will make a clip this evening to show you how it will work ....

3: I hit to the waist because I am able to do so. I can also hit to the head or shoulder. Also it´s because of a better function of the sweep. If my opponent is quick and prevent the sweep, I move on with next technique: Hyun cheui! Like it is in the Bang Bo. Hey: look at your forms! All answer are in there!

[German Bai Lung]

Hi Whoknowswho,

most of your questions are not from substance, sorry. But they could be answered like: well, if you apply it in this way, its another technique. You see: if you kick in front, you got a jaat toi. If you pull with both hands (instead of cutting palm to the kidneys) you got Baak Yun Ching Haak/Invitation of the white ape.

Okay, before we continue, I got a little quickshot clip of the applications in question.
This evening not time for preparation and only a beginner for partner, so please no comments on the qualities!

CLIP

[jwwmantis]

In the move for Q1, after the kick, the attacker comes at you with an attack using his left arm, then you intercept with your right hand and just after that use your left hand to do elbow chin na. You push away slightly with your left leg to give yourself that extra second to get your technique to work before he can hit you with his right hand. Not sure if you follow this but thats just my take on it.

Later in the form there is some wrist chin na. The same concept should be used to control the opponent with a wrist lock. The way this lock is played out it would be difficult to break someones wrist which is bendable and strong. Again, just my take on whats happening in the form.

jwwmantis

[JadeMantis]

JW - I see where your coming from and agree with you there. Also on the intercept it could be a tech to off balance the opponent and set him up for another strike to the head/neck.

YouKnowWho - What about the back kick to the groin, this could work if you are in close enough and your leg is flexible enough. Also thinking about it, could the kick be used as a block for a low kick directed at our lead leg ??

MantisSifu, German Mantis & German Bai Lung
If you dont mind would you be able to give me the Chinese Terminology for the following moves in Bung Bo ??

Move 30
The Palm Shearing and Mantis Spys Tha Cave

Move 35 & 36
The Counter Intercept / Wrist Lock

Also would you be able to clarify move 23

Upward Elbow Strike
Would you call it Ti Zhou : Raising Elbow

Thanks for all your help and insight

JM

[GermanMantis]

Move 30:

Jin Jeung Tong Long Taam Dung 翦掌螳螂探洞

Move 35 (wrist lock) is:

Chou Cheui 措捶

Sorry i'm a little bit in a hurry, there for this short answer.
Best regards,
Chris

[JadeMantis]

No problem Chris. I greatly appreciate your time and help.

Many Thanks

Darren

[mantisben]

...
- The #9 kick right leg behind the left leg are using the power from the leg only and not from the waist.

Forget the hands in the technique from here on know as "#9".

Have you ever thrown #9 against a punching bag while the bag was propped-up against a wall? Try throwing #9 against a wall or a door, landing the kick flat-footed against the surface. If the target is not as high as the knee, but higher than the ankle, it has force to it. If the target of #9 is too high, it loses force as it elevates. If the target is below the knee, but above the ankle, you can whip your waist counter-clockwise into the kick to generate alot of force. Now that I think about it, #9 isn't even EFFECTIVE if you don't whip your waist counter-clockwise when you throw the kick.

Throwing #9 against a tree, without using the hand technique, "enlightened" me (that's what it felt like, at least) as to how this technique is supposed to be thrown.

It's not a show-stopper of a technique, but it is effective. #9 thrown properly can take the opponents leg with all the weight on it right out from underneath them, if done properly.

[jwwmantis]

So are you saying whereever this "back" kick shows up in any forms is incorrect? I know it is used in flying goose palm. When I do the kick the waist is actually utilized a little.

On the first 3 principles, as you strike, you have the "pluck" action, and the punch has extension, whereas you are rooted to the ground. This shows up in several other forms as well. The need to advance forward s not really a necessity.

Just my take on this. Innteresting stuff though.

jwwmantis

[mantisben]

The problem in #9 is that your upper body spin to your left (counter clockwise - top view) with both palms striking but the right leg spin to your right (clockwise - top view) with the kick behind your left leg.

When you throw the kick in #9 correctly (in my opinion), the waist "naturally" whips counter-clockwise. Also, if your kick misses, it will be easier to maintain your balance with your waist's momentum going counter-clockwise. However, if you try throwing the kick in #9 while the waist is spinning clockwise, you'll have to make it a totally different kick to make it effective. It then becomes, a totally different technique. The position of the foot changes, as well as the striking suface of the foot.

How can you generate power on your hands and kick at the same time when your body are spinning in different directions?

Since the kick in #9 naturally causes your waist to "whip" counter-clockwise, it is a good time to make use of, what is called "Gow" and "Pow". Sifu Carl Albright calls this "Reeling" and "Casting".

Allow the momentum of the waist "whipping" in the counter-clockwise direction - caused by proper execution of the #9 kick - to launch your hands at your opponents face in the form of a back slap, that can turn into a hair-pulling, neck-yanking, bridge-establishing "feint the upper/lower to attack the lower/upper" technique.

As far as generating power for the #9 back-slap, slaps "generally" aren't knock-out techniques. A Back-Slap is a structurally fast technique, much like the Boxer's Jab. I'm sure an Iron-Palm practicioner, or Mike Tyson can generate a helluva back-slap. But usually, a Back-Slap is not a "Widow-Maker".

An Eye-Poke can probably replace the Back-Slap. Now, you don't even need to generate too much power on your hands for the technique to be effective, as long as your technique is "accurate".

[mantisben]

...
- The #12 in Bung Bo after the #11 hammer fist, The Gou Lou Tza Shau, the ending punching strike from the arm only and not from the root (should hop forward on the ending punch).
...

The technique "Gou Lou Tza Shau" - #12 from here on - comes just before #13, which is a short Upper-Cut punch. Very often, upper-cut punches are knock-out punches, when they strike their target accurately, and with force. Upper-Cuts are "generally" not thrown from a long-range, but from close range. So, when you use #12, without moving forward, there is a good chance that you'll be in the correct punching range to deliver #13. Remember, #11 is the technique with the Hammer-fist which brings you in close, then #12 is executed from close, which, if it lands, is effective, but probably not as damaging as if you had thrown Gou Lou Tza moving in from mid-range. In boxing matches, people don't often get knocked-out from right-crosses executed from close-range. A popular boxing combination is to throw a right-cross while closing the gap, or while their opponent is up against the ropes, followed by a left upper-cut. Time and again, to this day, this combination is proven to be an effective techniqe.

How I see it, #12 and #13 is the "somewhat" boxing equivalent of the Right-Cross (#12) followed by the Left Upper-Cut (#13).

To make it clear, the attack in Bung Bo #12 is NOT supposed to stop at #12, but it stops at #13. #11, #12, and #13 are supposed to go together as a combination. You could use each technique individually, depending on the situation. However, when used together, they form one of those rapid-fire attacking combinations that Praying Mantis is known for.

I wonder if there is a name for the Bung Bo #12/#13 combination because it shows up in WHF 7* PM "18 Old Men" (4th Road), "Spear Hand" (1st Road), "14 Roads" (#8), and "White Ape Steals The Peach" (3rd Road).

One final note, in the form "White Ape Steals The Peach", #12 is actually executed with steps launching you forward (Replacing Step) followed by #13, so it DOES exist with the "hop forward on ending punch" variation you described.

I have to add that I learned the forms listed above as passed down from the WHF lineage. As you know, the forms will vary from one lineage to another.