Bung Bo apps

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by MantisCool
Hi! Young Mantis

I dont know the exact wordings but I think kneeling is not very correct either! Maybe, it is half squat and half kneel!

MC

Oh, I hope you understand I was not trying to say kneeling is a better word than squatting. I was actually trying to say how similar they are.

YM

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Here it is again in slow motion (luckily it's a training tape).

slo-mo

So I take it nobody here plays the set this way?

I was just wondering, since he doesn't show apps or ling, if there was a different application for this move. Seems to me there could be a different interpretation of this section.

Since this person is respected in the Mainland Mantis community I don't think the differences can be shrugged off.

Personally, and obviously I'm no expert, I don't think it's a kick but rather a stepping motion used to rapidly move in and retreat (finishing the attack) while maintaing balance. It's a modification of the full cross step/stance but quicker since the foot never touches ground. In this case the arm is grabbed, the eyes attacked (look closely) then opponent is wrenched off balance while breaking the arm.

One reason I don't buy the jump behind you is why would anyone do that? Why go from one side to the other? Especially if you could go halfway and have his undefended back? Looks nice in the 2-man but not realistic IMHO.

[mantis108]

Hi Hualin,

The move in question is a counter to the opponent's intent to grab your hair/head while making a pass. This is pretty much across the board regardless of style that have this form as far as I am aware. Now if there is a superb duper secret family Bengbu that I have not seen before, I would love to see it and learn the apps as well.

The key of the move is aganist someone who turns the table on me using Zhan Zhuan Teng Nuo. Hair/head grabbing is a big thing in Mantis. There is an entire section in older Quanpu just devouted to this type of techniques. Old Masters of Mantis knew the effectiveness of this, they trian both the apps and counters to it. Why is it so effect? Because once upon a time in China, people either bundled their hair or briaded their hair. Your head simply follows where your hair goes. This is a great handle like the neck, triceps, biceps, lats, etc... It is not some ultra secretive stuff even cavemen and cat fights in the bar use this instinctively. Most people don't use that anymore is because nowaday long hair is no longer a fashionable or functional thing and we have lost much of our instinct that we have to relearn it. The greatest benefit of hair grab especially from behind is that it's just as effective as a clinch but not as crude as a clinch (at least in appearance). One might call it head trapping (immobilizing). This makes it ideal for an art like mantis.

Now of course, if you make the pass (not wanting to hair grab) and the other guy is just stand there like an idiot then by all means do whatever you see fit. You can punch and kick the living day lights out of him or rear bear hug him and drop his head on the floor WWF style. Mantis simply offers a mean through this move in the Bengbu form for your consideration to deal with such a pass with a body check or stick and follow through.

Just some thoughts to share with you.

Mantis108

[sayloc]

This is also called "grab the mullet"

Got to love the guys who keep the 80's hair styles going

[BeiTangLang]

I am a firm believer in the idea that many (ok,..most) forms contain movements to deal with not just a single, but multiple attackers. The movements are guide-lines for real world usage and not just a set of techniques that you run together with all the time.

I see a great value in the ling side of forms, but no as great a value in using them to train the first side. To me, their value stands in what they do unto themselves (stand-alone) rather than what they do for the parent form.

HLL, as for as the section you posted is concerned; to me, the turning /block/kick/insert your own iterpretation, movement is more about the concept of CYA than any specific ling movement.

Best Wishes to everyone for a great new Year BTW!
~BTL
(crawls back under his rock)

[yu shan]

Hua Lin Laoshi

You will have to excuse my lack of Chinese terminology it is the only void in my training in PL. And I`m going to back up a bit in the form on a move that is not getting much attention so far. After I hopefully block the punch and knee attack we follow up with an elbow strike downward to the shoulder/arm, this can hurt in itself. If the form is able to continue, my Shifu follows with this backfist. Sometimes my Shifu uses a sort of "rolling" backfist and he uses it as a takedown sort of. He basically crashes thru my face with the backfist as a takedown... this happens when I fail to get my right hand up to block. If I get the block off on the powerful backfist with my right hand/arm, I attack his armpit with a tigerclaw (left hand), then as fast as I can, gain control of arm with both hands and yank like h e l l in a sort of rowing motion. Now this ling side guy attacking the armpit or tricep muscle yanking the bung lu side guys arm off, I literally pull him face first into the pavement. This is an important move for the ling side. By using this rowing arm drag down, can end the form right there. If the bung lu side is able to continue and not get taken down by his arm, as I`m pulling down I`m also jumping by either slapping him in the face or pop him in the back of head ( replace with hair grab or elbow). As I jump by, I hug if not brush as close to him as I can. Bung side turns head in my direction tries to block my slap with his right hand, then he delivers the kick and strike to face/throat/stones. I would MUCH rather show this in person, then you can see how effective these few movements of BOTH the Bung side and the ling side. I`m telling you man, the way Shr ZhengZhong teaches his two man forms are not dance like. And the form can be ended abruptly by either side. If you make it to Ohio, I`d really enjoy going over this with you. And sorry if I carried this out too far, I`m a hands on, not type on!

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

mantis108
Thanks for the historical perspective on the move. I was unaware that there was a head grab there and, unfortunately for me, I don't see the move defending against the head grab. The rear kick could be a defense against a kick to back of knee collapsing the leg but I believe if the opponent is positioned correctly the hands have no effect. The only way it works is with an incorrect positioning by the opponent. Just my opinion.

And I do like head grabs. Last guy I took down was with a head grab.

So you don't see any difference in application with the variation of hands in this version?

yu shan
You and me both on the Chinese terminology. This has been bugging me for some time.

"as I`m pulling down I`m also jumping by either slapping him in the face or pop him in the back of head"

I've seen John do this.

"Bung side turns head in my direction tries to block my slap with his right hand"

Here's where I see a problem. That, to me, is an incorrect response (at least not something I would do). You will be hit before you can turn far enough to block (turning where he will be rather than where he is). Especially if the hit is to the face as he jumps by.

I also see the kick and hand strike as being mutually exclusive. Being in range for the hand strike puts you out of range for the kick. Guess I'll just have to go over this.

BTW, as I've mentioned before I haven't learned Big Mantis or Bung Bo yet but they're currently in the works.

If I can make it out to Ohio I'll hopefully have at least Big Mantis, which does the move same as Pong Lai, by then.

[tanglang69]

How about if...

Originally posted by yu shan
Hua Lin Laoshi

After I hopefully block the punch and knee attack we follow up with an elbow strike downward to the shoulder/arm, this can hurt in itself. If the form is able to continue, my Shifu follows with this backfist. Sometimes my Shifu uses a sort of "rolling" backfist and he uses it as a takedown sort of. He basically crashes thru my face with the backfist as a takedown... this happens when I fail to get my right hand up to block. If I get the block off on the powerful backfist with my right hand/arm, I attack his armpit with a tigerclaw (left hand), then as fast as I can, gain control of arm with both hands and yank like h e l l in a sort of rowing motion. Now this ling side guy attacking the armpit or tricep muscle yanking the bung lu side guys arm off, I literally pull him face first into the pavement.

...at this point the bung lu side is in half kneeling with a rolling backfist that was caught by the ling side with a right hand block/grab followed by a left hand grab to the tricep. Now the ling side pulls to his right and tries to sweep the bung lu's front foot with his right leg. The bung lu's leg motion backwards can be a counter to the leg sweep (getting it out of the way). The arm movements can be peeling the ling side's grab off of your arm. Now the bung lu side ends in the horse stance with a right side hammerfist strike to the ling side's body. If bung lu side positions his right leg far enough behind the ling side person, you can use it as a takedown. Now add some fajing to it.

Now we used it in a different manner against the same person.

This is just my 2 cents worth from my "Go and figure it out yourself days".

Everyone have a wonderful day.

Oved
tanglang69

[mantis108]

You are most welcome, my friend.

One of the characteristics of Tanglang is faking high and hit low or vice versa. Sometimes it attacks the front but end up striking the opponent at the back. Most of the time, it's the opponent falls into the trap that you set up for him. I think you would remember the Xian Zhua application clips that I shared before. Little details changed means different things. That's why IMHO Tanglang is a very beautiful art.

Honestly, the kick to either block or take out the knee as an alternate app is IMHO very low percentage. I mean sure Jet Li or Tony Jaa (the Ong Bak guy) might be able to do in a controlled environment. But average MA Joe Dough like me aren't going to be able to pull it off.

Here's where I see a problem. That, to me, is an incorrect response (at least not something I would do). You will be hit before you can turn far enough to block (turning where he will be rather than where he is). Especially if the hit is to the face as he jumps by.

Well, you see that's where ergonormically correct posture doesn't necessary means aesthetically pleasing. You would actually be tilting slightly forward with your body while standing on the one leg (left). This way your butt is naturally up. That's where the Buttocks elbow comes in. It is all natural and ergonormically correct but looks kind of odd. The right leg also follows the tilt of the body to prop up aiding the hip check as a trip. So you would get the passing guy either way. Now I was literally bummed and landed squarely on my butt by a almost 200 lbs Tainan as I was passing through him the first time he showed me this app. BTW, I weighted about 120 lbs. So float like a butterfly and sting like a bee doesn't always work. lol... The hands are there for added protection mostly. So you see this is neutralize and attack at the same time and is very natural. But the posture does look a bit akward and not that elegant. Classic Tanglang is mostly ergonormically correct but not necessarily aesthetically pleasing.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[JadeMantis]

Hi All

I must say this is one great forum for info on our wonderful art, keep up the good work.

Now I'm new to this, my first post so if its in the wrong place I appologise.

I've only been training for about 18 months and thought its about time to get the info I have down on paper so its not forgotten.

So I'll start at the beginning with Bung Bo.

I'm looking for some info on the Chinese translation of some of the moves from Bung Bo, Ill list then below.

Move 1 : The Palm Block

Move 4 : The Palm Strike

Move 6 : The Leg Knee Strike with Hand Grab and Punch.

Move 7 : The Elbow Strike.

That should do me for now, there's loads more but hopefully you'll let me ask about those later.

Many thanks in advance for you help.

Its an honour to be able to speak with such experiance practitioners from around the world.

[JadeMantis]

Sorry guys also meant to say that I've looked in the Terminology aboe and cant seem to marry up the descriptions with the Chinese.

Cheers

[JadeMantis]

Got them all sorted now apart from the elbow.

LKW's book only states a "Right Elbow Strike"

I know elbow is Zhou but dont know what would go with that to make the full description.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Many thanks in advance.

JM

[MantisifuFW]

JadeMantis,

The term is Die Zhou 疊肘, literally translated "pile up" elbow.

To learn the Chinese for the techniques you use is indeed an important step in your mastery of the art. I encourage you to continue your studies.

A good book/recording of the Pinyin method of spelling and pronouncing the Mandarin for the terms is an excellent start. You can buy them online and fairly cheaply. Don't worry about a kit with extensive language/ grammar study at first.

I will have a book that focuses exclusively on reading the movements of the forms in Mandarin available this Spring or Autumn. We are testing it now and everyone who has used it says they can read the Chinese for the movements fairly well.

We will let everyone know when it is ready. In the meantime, continue with your studies and if you have questions, ask!

Steve Cottrell

[GermanMantis]

Hi JadeMantis,

as MantisifuFW remarks it is "Dip Jau" (cant.) for the elbowstrike.

Here are the names for the beginning movements as fare as i know:

Kwa Fu Yau Bo Cheui 跨虎右補捶 / Palmblock striking fist
Tong Long Bou Sin 螳螂捕僚 / Double grapping hand
Dang Saan Jo Chaap Jeung 登山左插掌 / thrusting Palm
Dang Saan Yau Bo Cheui 登山右補捶
Jung Fung Tong Cheui 縱封捅捶
Yap Waan Yau Dip Jau 入環右叠肘 / elbowstrike
Yap Waan Bang Cheui 入環崩捶
Bui Hau Taam Bou 背後探寶
Ma Sik Seung Fung Sau 馬式雙封手 / double grapping hand

I made some remarks, so you can identify the techniques. It is not a translation for the name of the technique.
Best regards,
Chris

[GermanMantis]

Hmmm it seems that we have different characters for the elbowstrik. I'll have to look it up.