Tien shan Pai Discussion

[Tainan Mantis]

I met master Wang Juezhen in 1989.
I attended his public and private classes.
My shifu, Shi Zhengzhong, is his last and most important disciple.
I say most important becuase my shifu took full responsibility for cleaning and preparing GM Wang for the hereafter.

During Master Wang's final years he stayed at My Shrfu's home every weekend and taught advanced classes.
My Shfu also has a large catalog of Master Wang performimg on videotape.

Master Wang taught a variety of styles and called his system Tien Shan Pai.
64 was likely chosen as it is a perfect number.

His most important contribution are his longfist forms, which are similar to cha chuen, but somewhat different.

If he created them or modified them himself will never be answered, but most of the forms he taught are from different styles.

EG
baji
bagua
taiji
xingyi
weapons

From what I have seen and been taught of his fighting method I conclude, as my Shifu did, that he was a top notch teacher with a very deep understanding of actual fighting.

[smarshall]

Dear Tainan,

Thank you very much for your insights! I am in the process of writing a series of articles on the style and this is just the kind of info I was looking for. Where did you meet Master Wang and where did you study with him? Could you tell me what are the characters for master Shi’s name? I would love to get in touch with him. Do you think he would be willing to do a small interview? I could even submit the questions via email.
Master Lin spoke to Master Wang’s daughter recently and she said that her father never mentioned anything about 63 generations. I believe that that was an embellishment later added by Huang to promote himself to 64th generation. Why he would choose an obvious bagua number, outrageously inflated, is beyond me. Also beyond me is why so many people would believe it.
After training in this system for so long I truly want to find out more about him from as many sources as possible. I hope you can help me and thanks again,
Sean

[smarshall]

Greetings Wolfen,

I believe we had a small misunderstanding. There is a difference between learning a martial art (with the hope of one day mastering it) and learning ABOUT martial arts. I didn’t say I “can’t learn martial arts from a book”; I said it was “very difficult”. I was comparing learning martial arts from books compared to studying with qualified teacher. I have successfully done both but with much more success with coach. This was meant more as a general advice for beginners and not personally to you. Anyway the book does have a very good representation of Master Lin’s favorite form ChuJi Quan. He shows the solo and two person sets I believe. The part I like the best is Master Brown’s awesome seventies Afro. Sorry to be so shallow.
You are right though, back then who would have imagined the Internet? Who would have imagined China opening its borders like it has now? It has been a long-standing tradition for martial systems to “embellish” their humble beginnings, but that ish can’t fly in the information age. Master Lin is still in the D.C. area but he is not teaching. Although he might be willing to do a series of seminars at Jing Ying later this year. I’ll keep you posted if you wish.
My Sifu never used the term Tien Shan Pai because he always knew that it had no connection to Tien (Tian) mountain. He didn’t come up with the Tien Shan Pai folks; he learned some of the system from his friend C.C. Liu later in his career. He was an undefeated full contact fighter in southeastern Asia. He’s from Malaysia, his Sifu is Fu LinBao. Therefore he was never obliged to carry the name. The forms are from different sources most famously GuoShu. Therefore he could just as accurately call it Guoshu. These forms have always been referred to as “Northern Shaolin” or Northern Longfist”. So all these are accurate. Chinese martial arts are often famously centered on mountains. TaiShan, WuDang Shan, Emei Shan, Song Shan etc. That is why the Tian mountain was chosen. It didn’t hurt that it was the most remote. Nowadays the forms are becoming quite popular here on the East Coast.
I took a Qin na seminar with Master Yang. Some of the forms I’ve mentioned are in his book “Northern Longfist” which I used as a reference for my research.
I study traditional Chen JiaGou TaiJi. I’ve hosted seminars at Jing Ying with Master Chen ZhengLei and his son Master Wang HaiJun. I’ve also taken seminars in Va and Md with Chen XiaoWang and Zhu TianCai. Also a gentleman named Master Li taught me some Chen push hands in Xian. My Chen coach is Master C.P. Ong.
Talk later,
-Sean

[cerebus]

Don't worry about "Woofin", he's just the new forum troll trying to get a rise outta you. As we say when he makes a fool of himself (which is often lately):

"Pay no attention to woofin. We taught him wrong...as a joke."

[Tainan Mantis]

S,
I did not study with master Wang, sorry to mislead you. It was an accident.
I attended 2 of his classes ad watched him teach and perform.
My Shifu studied with him for many years and is listed on The Mantis Cave under Mimen Praying Mantis.

About the interview we can talk in private.

GM Wang did say 64 generations as well as using the term Tien Shan Pai.
Huang Chienliang is a long time disciple of his.
I met him when he came to visit my Shifu many years ago.

Chu Jichuen is the first of 3 basic forms.
This form is a combination of Baji, Shaolin and PM.
It was taught to the military as part of their curriculum Pre WW2.

This form was also performed with a bayonet.

The second form is called Zhong Ji Chuen and follows the same principle of including its partnerset within itself.

I wrote an article about this for Mantis Quarterly which you can find out about on the Mantis forum here.

Chu Ji Chuen, being a military form, is somewhat well known.

Up until recent times and even today in some of the modern military units the soldiers are taught kung fu forms.

When my shifu was an MP their form was Da Baji.

In the olden days the form was the primary methof of recognizing your place in the military.

EG, after battle when the stragllers returned to camp they could only prove their rank by the form they could demonstrate.

[FranklinFick]

Hi,

this is a little of the topic.

I studied a little Tien Shan Pai with a student of Dennis Browns' in Maryland for about 4 years.

I would be interested in finding out some more information on the two forms that i learned.

Chu Chi Chuan
Chung Chi Chuan

It was posted previously that Chu Chi Chuan is a combination of Baji, Shaolin, and Praying Mantis. and that it was taught to the millitary.

i would be interested in finding out any history on these 2 forms- when they were created, by whom, what styles they consist of.

also it was mentioned that these were goushu academy forms. which goushu academy and are there any references for these forms either in chinese or english (i already have the tien shan pai book by willy lin)

thank you for any help.

Franklin

[smarshall]

Thanks Cerebus,
I know how easy it is for misunderstandings to arise in these types of forums.
Peace,
-Sean

[smarshall]

Dear Franklinflick,
Those two forms ChuJi Quan and ZhongJi Quan or Primary Fist and Intermediate Fist are certainly GuoShu forms. They were created in the 30’s at the Central GuoShu Accademy in NanJing. They are very well documented in the Chinese Government published books on GuoShu. The ISBN code for the book is 80630-055-4/k 560 but it’s all in Chinese. It’s laughable for Huang to take credit for these forms when their true origins are so well documented. They are great forms though.
Peace out,
-Sean

[stimulant]

I havent read all the replies...

but I know someone 'in the know' who knows grandmaster huang well.

From what i've been told, it is a relatively new style and the reason it has so many generations is that they counted people on the same generation as different generations.

Though your guess is as good as mine as to the truth.

[FranklinFick]

thanks sean

i was wondering what the title of the book was...

either in chinese characters, or pin yin

i am not having any luck with the isbn that you listed...

can you check it or maybe you could point me in a direction of where the book might be available..

thanks

franklin

[FranklinFick]

Tainan Mantis,

i was looking for information on the article that you mentioned and i could not find anything...

i was hoping that you might put me on to the right path...

thanks
franklin

[Oso]

anyone got pics or vid of this being performed as the bayonet set?

that would be cool as hell and really, imo, a twist on teaching something 'traditionally' if not immediately practical....but it could be practiced w/ a 5' spear for the same affect....actaully, that would be realllly cool.

[Tainan Mantis]

FranklinFick,
Mantis Quarterly's first issue can be downloaded for free.
Under the name Kevin Brazier, me, is an article about 2 man forms.
I mention those forms in the article.

The bayonet set is on film, but I have not seen it.

[FranklinFick]

thanks tainan mantis...

As we are talking about the Tien Shan Pai curriculum....

i learned a drill called wheel fist... and was told that it was a complete shaolin style but only had 3 movements...

does anyone have more info as to the origins of this drill...

(it is a good set and i was taught that you can change the direction of the next movement and just keep going forever... good training)

thanks
franklin

[yu shan]

I was taught this entry level form. Simple yes, the partnered form is quite nice, and the two-person exercises out of the form can be intense.

TainanMantis

Did Master Shr teach you Zhong Ji Chuen? I would like to see/learn this form.