What can you do for strength in the class?

[Toby]

What Iron's saying is he's interested in maximal strength. Don't take his 300/140 figures too literally. He's just saying his perspective is get as strong as possible to give yourself the best chance to handle the big guys. 100 pushups ability won't help there. Low rep heavy weight benchpress will. Right, Iron?

[Oso]

well, it was the example given.

a 140 pounder might be able to squat or DL 300# of dead weight but 300# of resisting redneck is another thing altogether.

as I said, I understand and agree with the desire and need to prepare for the worst case scenario...I'm basically a 'half empty' type of person.

I guess I'm saying that in that example I don't think any amount of martial training and/or weight training is going to even those odds.

time to get out the 226.

[Oso]

also, the original question was what you can do in class.

The exercises presented at Train for Strength can easily be incorporated into class whereas weight training w/ barbells etc would be difficult to do so.

[IronFist]

Oso said:

IF: So, you think that a 140 pound guy can get strong enough to handle a 300 lb guy? I'm assuming you mean a fat 300 pounder and not a 300 pound weightlifter. All else being equal the 300# guy is going to beat the snot out of the 140# guy. Right?

I didn't say a 140lb guy would be stronger than a 300lb guy. I said a 140lb guy who only does bodyweight exercises will not be strong enough to move a 300lb guy on the ground. Regardless of how strong the 300lb guy is, he still weighs 300lbs.

It's not an exact comparison, but let's replace "300lb guy" with "300lb deadlift."

A 140lb guy who only does bw stuff most likely won't be able to deadlift 300lbs. I'm sure there's exceptions, but overall it won't happen. It's entirely possible for a 140lb guy to deadlift 300lbs, tho, although it would take some hard training cuz that's over 2x his bodyweight, but there are lighter people who have deadlifted more.

But like you said, all else being equal, a 300lb guy probably would beat a 140lb guy. Remember this is ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL so no saying "well what if blah blah blah" because there is no other difference other than weight because we said all else being equal.

Although it would be hard to come up with a situation in which a 140lb guy and 300lb guy had the same strength, endurance, etc. In fact I'd say that situation would never happen anyway.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Toby
What Iron's saying is he's interested in maximal strength. Don't take his 300/140 figures too literally. He's just saying his perspective is get as strong as possible to give yourself the best chance to handle the big guys. 100 pushups ability won't help there. Low rep heavy weight benchpress will. Right, Iron?

Yes, that too.

Of course, I don't want anyone to think I'm saying you should neglect endurance work. I'm a prime example of what happens when you do that.

[Oso]

IF, ok, gotcha. Let me clarify that I think a strong, fit, capable 140# dude is probably gonna whip a fat 300# guys ass if he pays attention to strategy and tactics.

In this instance, I think the correct strategy would be to out endure the fat guy by utilizing high mobility tactics to wear his cardio system down.

but anyway, running late for class...

[Mighty Mungbean]

What about static training? Bruce Lee was all about wearing himself out trying to lift the floor and push his house over. In our 8 Step Mantis classes we do a "chair" excercise for our legs where we "lean" against a wall with our legs making right angles (at hip and knee). We usually try and balance an escrima stick across our thighs to maintain form. We usually hold this for five sets of one minute or shorter number of sets with more time.

We then follow these immediately with frog squats or some other dynamic leg excercise.

[premier]

Yes. That's one way of increasing the muscle tension and train for strength. But the problem is that it will do so only for limited range of motion. Am I right?

[Toby]

Personally I think the strength thing is too hard to train in class. I think it is something that students should do themselves outside of class. It's too difficult and time consuming to train effectively in class. But if you really wanted to, I'd do a few things:

(i) Pistols.
(ii) Paired pushups where one guy leans/sits/whatever on the other's back then swap. Alternatively one-handed pushups.
(iii) Hang some ropes from the roof and get them to climb the ropes.
(iv) Jandas.
(v) Maybe some heavy sandbag work.

But again, I don't think the kwoon is the place for strength training. I think it's a good place for qigong-type exercises and general fitness like we're all familiar with.

[Becca]

Originally posted by premier
Yes. That's one way of increasing the muscle tension and train for strength. But the problem is that it will do so only for limited range of motion. Am I right?

This type of exersize is only as limited as your imagination.

I havefound that rather than doing push-ups till I injure myself, I got better results by putting my feet on progressivly higher steps. When I could get no more out of it, I stopped for a while and whent on to something else for a while. It is very hard for regular peeps to work every muscle sub group adiquatly, so rotation is the only way to go.

[SevenStar]

he's talking about range of motion, not variety of exercise. He's right - when you do static training, you will only gain strength in the static position that you are holding. Not only that, but the resistance is still not entirely progressive. I can put my hands in a prayer position and push them together. That will work my pecs and tris. However, I can only offer so much resistance... If I could forever increase it, then the pressure would eventually become too great and I would break my own hands...

same thing with mungbean's examples. pushing a house isn't progressive resistance - it's the same weight every single time. your body will get used to pushing against that weight. Once you press against it for so many minutes, it becomes an endurance exercise. That's not making you stronger anymore. If it was, then you would eventually be able to actually move the house - and that ain't gonna happen.

[Ming Yue]

with bw workouts, different people will plateau at different times. At what point in training, say, pushups, do you stop gaining strength and start increasing endurance only? It would make sense that there were overlapping curves, where strength increases lessened and endurance went up in relation to one another.

Once I can do one, then technically I can successfully move that amount of weight, so is everything from that point forward building endurance?

[Toby]

Rule of thumb is:

< 6 reps for strength.
6-20 reps for hypertrophy.
> 20 reps for endurance.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Oso
Serp !!!

ok, so this is a question I've been thinking about for a bit now:

Do bodyweight exercises provide enough strength training for martial artists?

I could expound upon my thoughts on this but lets start there.

My answer is: Yes.

Oso!!!

I think the problem here with this thread now is that people are talking about two different things.

1. The strength required to effectively pursue your chosen style and fight well

2. Maximal strength - reaching your best strength potential.

If you are 140 and a 300lb dude is on top of you, then you're pretty f#@ked already. However, any grappler will tell you that a good ground game is more technique than brute strength.

Obviously, the stronger you are, the more tools you have in your toolbox, so strength training of some degree is wise.

However, most people never fully use bwe - how many hand stand pushups can you do? Can you do 6 good, full ROM HSPU's? Can you do 6 chin ups and pull ups, full ROM from a dead hang? Can you do 6 pistols, pausing at the bottom of each one?

Until you can reach these levels, then weighted exercises are not necessary. The main reason that people go straight to weights is because, on the whole, you get faster strength gain results that way. However, if you can reach the levels of bwe I mentioned above, then just add weight to that. Wear a backpack of books on your pullups, get your partner to sit on you for pushups, hold a sack of rice for pistols, etc., etc. Now you're blurring the line between weighted resistance exercises and bodyweight resistance exercises anyway. It's kinda down to your preferences and the availability of space, money, a gym, etc.

On top of all that, I have to agree with something someone else said earlier (was is Tobes?) The gwoon is not really the place for it. People come to the gwoon to learn kung fu. They can do fitness and strength training in their own time. Sure, you can always incorporate some into the classes in your gwoon, but spend too much time on it and the kung fu training suffers. Equally, as it is a kung fu class, you'll never dedicate enough time and effort to stength and fitness training anyway. Just constantly remind students how important it is for them to be fit and strong - the training should be ample reminder if they're not fit and strong enough!

Offer your students all the advice they need, invite them to see you outside of class times to discuss a workout program, etc. In class, concentrate on the fu!

These are my views anyway, and I'm always right, so listen to me.

[Oso]

my question was about developing enough strength to be competant at your art...perhaps I should have added my other thoughts to my original question.

However, most people never fully use bwe - how many hand stand pushups can you do? Can you do 6 good, full ROM HSPU's? Can you do 6 chin ups and pull ups, full ROM from a dead hang? Can you do 6 pistols, pausing at the bottom of each one?

I like those numbers as goals.


I also agree that strength training doesn't belong in the regular class. I think it can be in the guan but as a separate offering.
We used to do pushups, etc in the beginning of class but I've dropped them in favor of the qigong/stretching routine developed by our shrye. I got complaints about that, Ming Yue included, but I also began offering the time on saturday mornings to come in and do strength training as a group. It's worked out well and offers another opportunity for the students to bond as a group.


btw, I was just exclaming at your reemergance.