18 Louhan Hands question

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally posted by mantis108
<<<First and foremost, thank you for taking the time to respond to my queries. I really appreciate that. >>>

No problem, thanks for the discussion.

<<< I think I begin to get a sense of your perspective. Personally, I believe it is a daunting task to try to reconcile both northern and southern records especially there are plenty of "oral traditions" floating around. It would seem that you alluded to the Tien Di Hui story as well as southern Shaolin legends as welll. BTW, I think your position on the Northern Shaolin is inline with most government approved publications. That's very interesting. In a way, we are somewhat on similar wave length when dealing with the Tien Di Hui and Southern Shaolin. >>>

Ha, that would be very daunting! It is very hard to see how the north and south really transitioned.

But how is my position in line with most gov't approved stuff? Mostly every article I have written has been at odds with any official versions. I'm pretty much of the opinion that almost every story about KF histry that is "official" is full of baloney.

<<<I would caution that this is rather generalized and perhaps a bit narrow focused in the Shaolin perspective. I do think that secret societies (ie Tien Di Hui) and cults (ie White Lotus) played a rather crucial part in the development of Southern "Shaolin" Kung Fu. Shaolin might just be a front in some cases to camouflage the intentions and identities of the rebellions. >>>

Yes, I agree, Shaolin more than likely a front for these southern rebel organizations.

<<<Um... there is Choy Gar, a particular southern style and there is the Choy Gar in CLF. I think they are not the one and the same if I am not mistaken. I am not too familar with CLF but it would be interesting to know if Choy Fook is the same person as Tien Di Hui's Choy Duk Ying. I don't believe they are the same person. But I could be wrong. >>>

I know that, sorry, I didn't make it clear which Choy I was talking about. I have some scraps of info here somewhere about a Choy ancestor being an officer in the Ming Army and hiding out at Shaolin and then eventually going south.
In Cantonese there is a mention of first a Chau Jeut Yee
and then a Chau Jeit Yee, that they were from the north originally. These are not the same at all in relation to the other Choy Gar of the south.


<<<He's another problem. Hung Gar, that's from Chi Sim to Hung Hey Koon, IMHO could have been a spin off of Yong Chun He Fa (Crane method of Yong Chun), which was the original Fujian White Crane. I am not sure if Hung Hey Koon passed down actual luohan form in his lines. His other Sihingdei though had luohan form that Hung students such as Lam Sai Wing might have picked up and subsequantly included in the famous Fu Hok Seung Ying.>>>

Well, what I have is a transcript I was given of a Hong Men Hall record hundreds of years old that lists the forms being taught as part of the early hung gar system, and the first form listed is Xiao Lohan, which really surprised me!

<<<This is rather hard to visualize not to mention that Shuai Jiao as it is known today do not use forms or long patterns as their training methodology. So it's hard to imagine Shuai Jiao is one and the same as Luohan. It could be said that there are Shuai elements in Luohan but it's just too hard to link the 2 "systems" together for me. Now even Shuai elements don't have to come from Shuai Jiao. Unless there are records to proof that there were Shuai Jiao people exchanged knowledge with Shaolin. Would such record exists?>>>

If you know Shaui Jiao and Lohan, it's easy to see this.
If I could physically show you, you would see it right away.
Shuai Jiao was immensely popular in ancient times all over China, tournaments gathered 100s of thousands of spectators. It was common for people engaged in military or bodyguard functions to know it and many other people too.

<<<Well, this is again very hard to believe. I am sorry but as far as I am aware Tongbi similar to Shuai Jiao didn't have long forms. Tongbi used to have 24 moves (3 sections of 8 each.) So, I am really really having a hard time to see long form based system like Luohan comes first. I might have missing something in your post somewhere. I just don't see it, sorry. >>>

Hmm? Yes, of course, Shuai Jiao and Tong Bei are loose techniques based styles. What Lohan style did was ordered their moves into forms. They consolidated and amalgamated, like Shaolin is want to do, Shuai Jiao and Tong Bei loose techniques and developed the Lohan forms, which can be practiced at various levels, from all strike based to all throws based applications.
Many forms from many styles are amalagamated from tons of loose techniques.
What often looks like a group of strikes in some forms is just the mini-moves inside one throw in Shaui Jiao.
My Shuai Jiao teacher uses 18 Lohan Fist form to teach beginners stuff, we both have analyzed the Lohan forms together to show how each move is easy to do as Shuai Jiao takedowns instead of strikes. I teach Shaui Jiao at my school that I run and I use Lohan forms to start people off after teaching the loose techniques and students are familiar enough with them to try seeing the takedowns inside forms that look like they are only striking.
I can easily take any form from any Chinese style and do the whole form as Shuai Jiao.
Shuai Jiao is the earliest root of all Chinese martial arts, every move in any form has an equivalent move in Shuai Jiao. Sure, a lot of Shuai Jiao today, like a lot of styles, is done robotic like, but not the better taught ones.

<<<I am not from the 7 stars Mantis lineage. I am from the Taiji/Meihwa Manits lineage. I am also the minority in not buying the story of 18 styles forming the Shandong mantis system as we know it. >>>

Well maybe, but as I said in a previous posting here, I have a background in anthropology and I use anthropolocial methods to trace the evolution of forms over time and place. And, for sure 7 star Mantis when analyzed boils down to mostly a mixture of Tai Tzu Quan, Han Tong tong bei, and Fan Tzi Quan. I can show you Tai Tzu Quan forms that if I didn't tell you what style it was, you would guess Mantis instead. All moves in all the mantis forms trace back to equivalent moves in these 3 styles and they are mentioned as the root styles of these "18 masters". What it looks like to me that Shandong mantis was developed as an anti-Shaolin style, as a style to counter act Shaolin styles.
So, what's your theory.


<<<If you do have an old hand drawn manuscript of "Shaolin Authentics" or "Duan Da Mi Ciao" (and any varation thereof), you would indeed be a very lucky man because we would all want to get our hands on it. When you say copy this wouldn't be the one by Wong Hon Fun?>>>
I'll have to look and see. It's just a photocopy of an old manuscript. It was published in a book, it is available if you dig around.

<<<I agreed nothing mysterious but I am not sure about " mantisized". I have seen a few versions and practice one of the 18 Luohan based on the manuscript. Non of the versions that I know is "mantisized" nor there are moves from mantis in them. However, there are element that seems to share with Classical Tanglang Neigong forms such as Ba Duan Jin Shen Fa and San Hui Jiu Zhuan Huan Yang Fa. >>>

The one I saw took the moves from the old manuscript and added mantis hands to them.

<<<I am just curious as to how it can be proven there was a "real Luohan" form from ancient time? What prompted you to come to that conclusion? That's really fascination.>>>

Because of Shaolin records saying so and also from tracing the moves of the forms using anthropology techniques, which showed when the moves in the form were developed and what forms from other style borrowed from it and when.

<<<How do you come to this conclusion of such a long form exist pre-Song dynasty?>>>

I know that most pre-Song dynasty styles are mostly loose techniques, of course, sure. But the Lohan forms are known to be pretty old even just based on the line of who taught who, it goes far back to early Shaolin times. Da Hong Quan is 108 moves, its a buddhist number, but really it is because it is a bunch of small forms strung together to make one big one. The 18 Lohan Fist form is about 24 moves in length total. Xiao Lohan is a lot more, about 54 moves.

<<<Xingyi is said to be living fossil of Song dynasty martial arts. It's contain no long patterned forms but indivdual moves. Granted they would link the 5 fists and 12 animals to a "form" but that's not particularly long more than 50 moves. A full length of 108 moves form pre dating Song is very hard to believe. But that's perhaps my ignorence?>>>

See the above. Also, yeah, I agree about Xingyi, but the 5 fists are not part of the original style, the 5 fists are from Shanxi province styles, it was practiced there BEFORE Ji Long Feng went there to teach Xin Yi Liu Hu Quan.
The 12 animals is a modern form, extracted from various forms to use as a teaching device. The few truly early Xin Yi forms are very short, yes, less than 20 moves.

The only long forms that I know of that pre-date Song are the Lohan forms, which in essense are lumped together short forms, that I will conceed to you, friend. Thanks - Sal

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

I saw pictures on another forum of a 18 lohan form done by a Mantis sifu. It looked very similar to the Choy Lee Fut form.

If anyone is interested i will find it again & put a link.

[Royal Dragon]

Yes, post the link!

[GeneChing]

The 18 Lohan forms that I and others know are almost 2,000 years old, like most of the original Lohan forms. That has been well documented and well perserved in Shaolin both within and outside the temple. Lohan are the oldest Shaolin forms.

2,000 years old - are you sure about that date? The earliest that I've been able to date the existence of the Lohan in Chinese culture in general is around the 7th century. They don't really become popular until the 9th or 10th. Sure, that blows the whole 18 lohan originating with Tamo theory, but we've been discussing our skepticism of Tamo elsewhere. When you look outside the martial arts into general Chinese history, a lot of our creation myths fall apart.

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, I allways thought Da Mo was credited with developing the Qi Gong, and later the Monks applied them to martial practice, thus creating the Louhan system.

[kai men]

Hi Sal, I fully agree with you here.
Have you ever watched Ma Kim Fong's Luohan style? I have learnt some form from my sifu Chan Kowk Wai, who was a student of Ma Kim Fong in Hong Kong.
I have never found out the origin of that style.
(by the way, I have some doubts about antiqueness of that "18 luohan form" you wrote me some time ago, I think it was standardized by Cai Lung yun)
Kindest regards
Horacio

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hi Sal, I fully agree with you here.
Have you ever watched Ma Kim Fong's Luohan style? I have learnt some form from my sifu Chan Kowk Wai, who was a student of Ma Kim Fong in Hong Kong.
I have never found out the origin of that style.
(by the way, I have some doubts about antiqueness of that "18 luohan form" you wrote me some time ago, I think it was standardized by Cai Lung yun)
Kindest regards
Horacio

Not sure if I have seen Ma Kim Fong Lohan, even so I'd like to see it.
Is it a southern KF Lohan style?

The 18 Lohan form that we are both referencing here (that Frank DeMaria teaches) had been indeed popularized in English book by Cai Lung Yun, but he didn't standardize it.
I have found two different much older books than his that are just about this form, the 8 Step Linking Form (Ba Bu Lian Wuan), and the Wind Devil Staff forms, and there is long discussion about these forms being very ancient in Shaolin (8 Step form is from Tong Bei style originally and taken in by Shaolin eventually), like the Xiao and Da Lohan forms.
AND, my teacher David Chih Young Lin, was taught this form from a lineage that is quite seperate from Cai and taught by people older than Cai Lung Yun is in age today. My teacher didn't know about Cai teaching it too, he said the form goes way back.
Also, Russ from Russbo.com showed the form on his website, but he didn't know the name of the form.

I want to know who did Cai learn it from?

[Sal Canzonieri]

2,000 years old - are you sure about that date? The earliest that I've been able to date the existence of the Lohan in Chinese culture in general is around the 7th century. They don't really become popular until the 9th or 10th. Sure, that blows the whole 18 lohan originating with Tamo theory, but we've been discussing our skepticism of Tamo elsewhere. When you look outside the martial arts into general Chinese history, a lot of our creation myths fall apart.

Well, maybe calculations wrong, but the form can exist before the Lohan were attributed to it.
Song Dynasty is from over 1,000 years ago and
the Lohan forms, not necessarily that they were called that in ancient times, are in fact the step by step moves of Shaui Jiao throws if done in combinations of moves instead of strikes, so that means the moves in the forms are from before the Tang Dynasty. And Shaolin always say that the Lohan forms are the oldest forms that they have, which makes the forms over 1,500 years old, more accurately.

[NorthernShaolin]

Sal,

Ma's Lo Han is a Northern Lo Han style.

[Shaolin Master]

There is a lot of discussion over terms such as 'original' 'oldest' most 'complete' had to be etc.........in this thread that are unjustified.

Luohan as a style or qigong has been in use for many years. To mention facts of 1000 (or worse still 2000) years ago is fairly unjustified without considering all aspects of 'luohan' such as the route of 16 and the addition of the Fuhuluohan and xianglong luohan.

as examples:
Current Songshan shaolin Luohanquan and the other 'luohan' forms such as the 18 luohan hands series, luohan palms etc are like most current shaolin sets/forms based on Xiao/Da hongquan since the real practitioner of that particular branch was Miaoxing (that happened to dy during the battles earleir).

There is the Luohan Men (Luohan Division) which is one of the major styles arising from the Qing dynasty shaolin Weituo pai.

Another northern luohan style is represented by Luohan Shen Da as taught to the famous Wan Laisheng.

Fujian has its own Luohan style characteristic to region

Singapore/Malaysia also has their Luohan.......etc.......

In terms of qigong and finding the original something again this is futile since the aims are simple to promote good health, longevity and improved martial skill etc.... to own or claim, to adhere or cling to a thing or set of routines/methods as 'original' luohan or other would go against the term of 'Luohan' in the first place.

Oh, and all chinese martial arts have elements of striking, throwing (Shuaijiao), locking, etc........within. It is the practitioner or socalled master who failed in their learning to emphasise only one.

Also, principles of Tongbeiquan would be in contradiction to luohan as practiced by songshan shaolin today.

Regards
Wu Chan Long

[kai men]

Sal, thanks for your reply.
As Northernshaolin said, Ma Kim Fong's Luohan is a northern style. I only know the first form of the system (my Sifu teachs 4 hand forms and some weapons) and they are very interesting. At first sight it appears to be old fashion, with strong movements, combining hard and soft, and some ma bu movements with some similarity with the southern styles. (I could send you some material as you are studying the subject - write me in private)
As for Frank DeMaría, I remember he talked me about these forms in 1980, correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the book by Cai is after 1980.

Thanks again!
horacio

[Sal Canzonieri]

I agree that all the Lohan (and other) forms done today at Shaolin are basically modern forms, Ching Dynasty or later even.

But, your comment about Tong Bei, well for sure Tong Bei influenced most early martial arts in China, Shuai Jiao and Tong Bei were all pervasive for a really long span of time during the development of Chinese martial arts.
They both go way, way back. And, in essence, yes, are a method within the forms. You can make any form into Shuai Jiao if you know how, and
Tong Bei is also Long Fist/Sword play techniques that are build in to the moves of most forms. Really, if you take an empty hand form and do it as a sword form, you are using Tong Bei ideas, which became Long Fist ideas. So, saying Tong Bei is essentially saying Long Fist, and the Long Fist ideas came from Sword play and Tong Bei from way back in Sun Tzu's time they were mentioning Tong Bei, with Quai Gu Tzu being a teacher of this style way back then.

The 18 Lohan form I am talking about is considered both inside and outside of Shaolin to be amongst its oldest forms (along with Xiao and Da Lohan, and later Xiao and Da Hong Quan). From what year/era/dynasty exactly, who knows? But judging from the moves in the 18 Lohan form I specifically am talking about (which you can't see since this is just words I am typing),
they are strongly related to the more ancient Chinese martial arts.

All these Lohan styles that you mention are all much newer than the old Shaolin 18 Lohan form I am speaking of. This old 18 Lohan looks nothing like any newer Shoalin Lohan form.
Indeed the newer Ching Dynasty Shaolin forms are very different and
almost all of these newer forms look and act related to each other and to me they are all variations of the same thing.

There is a lot of discussion over terms such as 'original' 'oldest' most 'complete' had to be etc.........in this thread that are unjustified.

Luohan as a style or qigong has been in use for many years. To mention facts of 1000 (or worse still 2000) years ago is fairly unjustified without considering all aspects of 'luohan' such as the route of 16 and the addition of the Fuhuluohan and xianglong luohan.

as examples:
Current Songshan shaolin Luohanquan and the other 'luohan' forms such as the 18 luohan hands series, luohan palms etc are like most current shaolin sets/forms based on Xiao/Da hongquan since the real practitioner of that particular branch was Miaoxing (that happened to dy during the battles earleir).

There is the Luohan Men (Luohan Division) which is one of the major styles arising from the Qing dynasty shaolin Weituo pai.

Another northern luohan style is represented by Luohan Shen Da as taught to the famous Wan Laisheng.

Fujian has its own Luohan style characteristic to region

Singapore/Malaysia also has their Luohan.......etc.......

In terms of qigong and finding the original something again this is futile since the aims are simple to promote good health, longevity and improved martial skill etc.... to own or claim, to adhere or cling to a thing or set of routines/methods as 'original' luohan or other would go against the term of 'Luohan' in the first place.

Oh, and all chinese martial arts have elements of striking, throwing (Shuaijiao), locking, etc........within. It is the practitioner or socalled master who failed in their learning to emphasise only one.

Also, principles of Tongbeiquan would be in contradiction to luohan as practiced by songshan shaolin today.

Regards
Wu Chan Long

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, thanks for your reply.
As Northernshaolin said, Ma Kim Fong's Luohan is a northern style. I only know the first form of the system (my Sifu teachs 4 hand forms and some weapons) and they are very interesting. At first sight it appears to be old fashion, with strong movements, combining hard and soft, and some ma bu movements with some similarity with the southern styles. (I could send you some material as you are studying the subject - write me in private)
As for Frank DeMaría, I remember he talked me about these forms in 1980, correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the book by Cai is after 1980.

Thanks again!
horacio

Well I would love to see these forms, I feel that I have seen them once somewhere on a tape that I have. You have my email address so sure if you would be so kind as to provide me some materials to review, I would be most happy, my friend.

I have a tape of you doing the 18 Lohan Form that I am talking about.
If you just do the form without analyzing the movements, it is just a hard/soft Shaolin form. But if you look at the sequence of movements
deeper you will find that the first row is the Five Elements in the ancient order: Pi, Zuan, Beng, Pau, and Heng.
Also all the moves from the beginning to end are also found in the 10 big shapes and the Small Shapes animal forms of Xin Yi (and later with more changes in technique found in Xing Yi).

I've been doing Lohan, Xing Yi, Shuai Jiao, Tong Bei, etc for the last 15 years and when you know all these styles you start realizing when you are doing the forms that you did the moves in that same sequence before in another form.
That's what sparked all the research.

I have found the moves from this 18 Lohan form embedded in the forms of other styles as well (but done with the jings, body mechanics, etc of that other style). So, this form must have been very important to preserve and
must be very old and must be something that the founders of these forms must have had intimate knowledge of.
I have found the moves buried in the 18 Ancients form of 7 Star Mantis, in the
Ba Ji - Pi Qua form (from Wu Tang school), in a Cha Quan form, and in other styles (Ba Qua, Xin Yi/Xing Yi, etc).

So, something is very important about this form, eh?

I use anthropological research techniques (I have a degree in that) to uncover the signature moves in forms and trace them like pottery designs are traced from region to region, era to era, person to person.

It's a vast puzzle that has many interconnections.
My research is tying in all these styles as being connected to one another in this order:
Shuai Jiao, Tong Bei, Shaolin 18 Lohan and Xin Yi Bar and Pao Chuoi forms, Tai Tzu Quan/Hong Quan, Fantzi, Yue Fei Jia Quan/Lie Ho Quan, Northern Mantis, Eagle Claw, Chen Tai Ji, Yang Tai Ji, Xin Yi/Xing Yi, Yin Ba Qua and eventually Sun style Ba Qua and Xing Yi.

They all have Shuai Jiao/ Tong Bei as their deep roots, the Shaolin forms as the skeleton that their forms hang on as the main trunk, and then
from Tai Tzu and Fantzi come next as the main branches, and from there come all the seperate branches from this tree: Mantis, Yue Fei, Eagle Claw, Chen and Yang Tai Chi (I'm not worrying about their offshoots), Xin Yi/XingYi, and Ba Qua.

There are moves, at least 50 to 100, that are in common with all these styles, that are not found in styles outside of this tree.
Sun Lu Tang understood this and alluded to this in his books.

(the Wu Dong internal styles I think had some contact with this tree when it was a sapling. Many say that Yang style tai Chi has moves found in the Wu Dong internal styles, but I can find ALL these some moves spoken of
inside the root styles that I have mentioned that Yang Lu Chan easily could have learned either from his Hong Quan background or from Chen tai ji.)

If I could show you all what I am talking about, then you would easily see what I am talking about.

Hmm, topic for an article, it's big enough to do a book on really.
I can give seminar on this all if anyone wants to come to NJ.

Sal

[GeneChing]

I must be slipping. It's been so busy around here.

We ran Shawn Liu's (Deru) version of Songshan Luohan Shi Ba Shou in our NOV 98 issue. I also did a four-article series on Songshan Shaolin Xiao Luohan (performed by Shi Guolin) that started in our July Aug 2001 and concluded (quite appropriately) in our Jan Feb 2002 (Shaolin Special).

I learned Xiao Luohan initially from Shi Yanming in a one-day seminar. It didn't stick really, nor did I continue to work on it, but I had to relearn it to work out that article series. I learned Da Luohan from Shi Decheng in '98 at Shaolin. I'm pretty rusty on that too - there was a movement in the begining that I never resolved and the end pattern is a bit messed up in my mind. Neither form is in rotation as part of my regimen anymore sadly. I enjoyed both forms immensily - nice energy flow and some fine applications - but things fall to the wayside and those two were some of those things.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, thanks for your reply.
As Northernshaolin said, Ma Kim Fong's Luohan is a northern style. I only know the first form of the system (my Sifu teachs 4 hand forms and some weapons) and they are very interesting. At first sight it appears to be old fashion, with strong movements, combining hard and soft, and some ma bu movements with some similarity with the southern styles. (I could send you some material as you are studying the subject - write me in private)
As for Frank DeMaría, I remember he talked me about these forms in 1980, correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the book by Cai is after 1980.

Thanks again!
horacio

So, Horatio, this 18 Lohan form, both sides, is out on VCD by the Wah Quan lineage.
Seems that this form came from or to Shaolin by the Yuan Dynasty, around time of MOnk Jue Yuan (who reorganized Shaolin Lohan into Animals system).