Originally posted by mantis108
<<<First and foremost, thank you for taking the time to respond to my queries. I really appreciate that. >>>
No problem, thanks for the discussion.
<<< I think I begin to get a sense of your perspective. Personally, I believe it is a daunting task to try to reconcile both northern and southern records especially there are plenty of "oral traditions" floating around. It would seem that you alluded to the Tien Di Hui story as well as southern Shaolin legends as welll. BTW, I think your position on the Northern Shaolin is inline with most government approved publications. That's very interesting. In a way, we are somewhat on similar wave length when dealing with the Tien Di Hui and Southern Shaolin. >>>
Ha, that would be very daunting! It is very hard to see how the north and south really transitioned.
But how is my position in line with most gov't approved stuff? Mostly every article I have written has been at odds with any official versions. I'm pretty much of the opinion that almost every story about KF histry that is "official" is full of baloney.
<<<I would caution that this is rather generalized and perhaps a bit narrow focused in the Shaolin perspective. I do think that secret societies (ie Tien Di Hui) and cults (ie White Lotus) played a rather crucial part in the development of Southern "Shaolin" Kung Fu. Shaolin might just be a front in some cases to camouflage the intentions and identities of the rebellions. >>>
Yes, I agree, Shaolin more than likely a front for these southern rebel organizations.
<<<Um... there is Choy Gar, a particular southern style and there is the Choy Gar in CLF. I think they are not the one and the same if I am not mistaken. I am not too familar with CLF but it would be interesting to know if Choy Fook is the same person as Tien Di Hui's Choy Duk Ying. I don't believe they are the same person. But I could be wrong. >>>
I know that, sorry, I didn't make it clear which Choy I was talking about. I have some scraps of info here somewhere about a Choy ancestor being an officer in the Ming Army and hiding out at Shaolin and then eventually going south.
In Cantonese there is a mention of first a Chau Jeut Yee
and then a Chau Jeit Yee, that they were from the north originally. These are not the same at all in relation to the other Choy Gar of the south.
<<<He's another problem. Hung Gar, that's from Chi Sim to Hung Hey Koon, IMHO could have been a spin off of Yong Chun He Fa (Crane method of Yong Chun), which was the original Fujian White Crane. I am not sure if Hung Hey Koon passed down actual luohan form in his lines. His other Sihingdei though had luohan form that Hung students such as Lam Sai Wing might have picked up and subsequantly included in the famous Fu Hok Seung Ying.>>>
Well, what I have is a transcript I was given of a Hong Men Hall record hundreds of years old that lists the forms being taught as part of the early hung gar system, and the first form listed is Xiao Lohan, which really surprised me!
<<<This is rather hard to visualize not to mention that Shuai Jiao as it is known today do not use forms or long patterns as their training methodology. So it's hard to imagine Shuai Jiao is one and the same as Luohan. It could be said that there are Shuai elements in Luohan but it's just too hard to link the 2 "systems" together for me. Now even Shuai elements don't have to come from Shuai Jiao. Unless there are records to proof that there were Shuai Jiao people exchanged knowledge with Shaolin. Would such record exists?>>>
If you know Shaui Jiao and Lohan, it's easy to see this.
If I could physically show you, you would see it right away.
Shuai Jiao was immensely popular in ancient times all over China, tournaments gathered 100s of thousands of spectators. It was common for people engaged in military or bodyguard functions to know it and many other people too.
<<<Well, this is again very hard to believe. I am sorry but as far as I am aware Tongbi similar to Shuai Jiao didn't have long forms. Tongbi used to have 24 moves (3 sections of 8 each.) So, I am really really having a hard time to see long form based system like Luohan comes first. I might have missing something in your post somewhere. I just don't see it, sorry. >>>
Hmm? Yes, of course, Shuai Jiao and Tong Bei are loose techniques based styles. What Lohan style did was ordered their moves into forms. They consolidated and amalgamated, like Shaolin is want to do, Shuai Jiao and Tong Bei loose techniques and developed the Lohan forms, which can be practiced at various levels, from all strike based to all throws based applications.
Many forms from many styles are amalagamated from tons of loose techniques.
What often looks like a group of strikes in some forms is just the mini-moves inside one throw in Shaui Jiao.
My Shuai Jiao teacher uses 18 Lohan Fist form to teach beginners stuff, we both have analyzed the Lohan forms together to show how each move is easy to do as Shuai Jiao takedowns instead of strikes. I teach Shaui Jiao at my school that I run and I use Lohan forms to start people off after teaching the loose techniques and students are familiar enough with them to try seeing the takedowns inside forms that look like they are only striking.
I can easily take any form from any Chinese style and do the whole form as Shuai Jiao.
Shuai Jiao is the earliest root of all Chinese martial arts, every move in any form has an equivalent move in Shuai Jiao. Sure, a lot of Shuai Jiao today, like a lot of styles, is done robotic like, but not the better taught ones.
<<<I am not from the 7 stars Mantis lineage. I am from the Taiji/Meihwa Manits lineage. I am also the minority in not buying the story of 18 styles forming the Shandong mantis system as we know it. >>>
Well maybe, but as I said in a previous posting here, I have a background in anthropology and I use anthropolocial methods to trace the evolution of forms over time and place. And, for sure 7 star Mantis when analyzed boils down to mostly a mixture of Tai Tzu Quan, Han Tong tong bei, and Fan Tzi Quan. I can show you Tai Tzu Quan forms that if I didn't tell you what style it was, you would guess Mantis instead. All moves in all the mantis forms trace back to equivalent moves in these 3 styles and they are mentioned as the root styles of these "18 masters". What it looks like to me that Shandong mantis was developed as an anti-Shaolin style, as a style to counter act Shaolin styles.
So, what's your theory.
<<<If you do have an old hand drawn manuscript of "Shaolin Authentics" or "Duan Da Mi Ciao" (and any varation thereof), you would indeed be a very lucky man because we would all want to get our hands on it. When you say copy this wouldn't be the one by Wong Hon Fun?>>>
I'll have to look and see. It's just a photocopy of an old manuscript. It was published in a book, it is available if you dig around.
<<<I agreed nothing mysterious but I am not sure about " mantisized". I have seen a few versions and practice one of the 18 Luohan based on the manuscript. Non of the versions that I know is "mantisized" nor there are moves from mantis in them. However, there are element that seems to share with Classical Tanglang Neigong forms such as Ba Duan Jin Shen Fa and San Hui Jiu Zhuan Huan Yang Fa. >>>
The one I saw took the moves from the old manuscript and added mantis hands to them.
<<<I am just curious as to how it can be proven there was a "real Luohan" form from ancient time? What prompted you to come to that conclusion? That's really fascination.>>>
Because of Shaolin records saying so and also from tracing the moves of the forms using anthropology techniques, which showed when the moves in the form were developed and what forms from other style borrowed from it and when.
<<<How do you come to this conclusion of such a long form exist pre-Song dynasty?>>>
I know that most pre-Song dynasty styles are mostly loose techniques, of course, sure. But the Lohan forms are known to be pretty old even just based on the line of who taught who, it goes far back to early Shaolin times. Da Hong Quan is 108 moves, its a buddhist number, but really it is because it is a bunch of small forms strung together to make one big one. The 18 Lohan Fist form is about 24 moves in length total. Xiao Lohan is a lot more, about 54 moves.
<<<Xingyi is said to be living fossil of Song dynasty martial arts. It's contain no long patterned forms but indivdual moves. Granted they would link the 5 fists and 12 animals to a "form" but that's not particularly long more than 50 moves. A full length of 108 moves form pre dating Song is very hard to believe. But that's perhaps my ignorence?>>>
See the above. Also, yeah, I agree about Xingyi, but the 5 fists are not part of the original style, the 5 fists are from Shanxi province styles, it was practiced there BEFORE Ji Long Feng went there to teach Xin Yi Liu Hu Quan.
The 12 animals is a modern form, extracted from various forms to use as a teaching device. The few truly early Xin Yi forms are very short, yes, less than 20 moves.
The only long forms that I know of that pre-date Song are the Lohan forms, which in essense are lumped together short forms, that I will conceed to you, friend. Thanks - Sal