18 Louhan Hands question

[Royal Dragon]

The 18 lohan chi gung of Shaolin, the original one, is really the same thing as the Yi Jin Jing. Its just a another name for it.

Reply]
Interesting. Can you describe and name the original Louhan Qi Gongs?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
The 18 lohan chi gung of Shaolin, the original one, is really the same thing as the Yi Jin Jing. Its just a another name for it.

Reply]
Interesting. Can you describe and name the original Louhan Qi Gongs?

Well, its not really a real thing that can be named because there is only really the Yi Jin Jing and people rename it Lohan Qi Gong, the Muscle Tendon Changing / Brain Bone Marrow Cleansing Qi Gongs are the Lohan Qi Gong.
In essence they are Lohan (just cause so far back in time in Shaolin there was nothing else but the Lohan style and these primitive Qi Gongs).

There is no "original" Lohan Qi Gongs to name.
It's just these various early Shaolin Qi Gongs that really only existed. Anything derived from them other styles have called Lohan Qi Gongs.

When you do the original 18 Lohan Fists form, and probably also the other Lohan forms, you automatically are doing the Muscle Tendon Changing / Brain - Bone Marrow Cleansing Qi Gongs, they are combined with the moves of the forms, they are embedded into the moves, if you do the movements with the CORRECT body mechanics and breathing methods, you are indeed doing those Qi Gongs simultaneously.

Even the great Sun Lun Tang has said this in his notes, and according to him this is why there is a Shaolin root to Xing Yi and Ba Qua, because these styles borrowed these moves into their styles in order to embed these Qi Gongs into their styles. And also because these Qi Gongs were developed with Taoists ideas in them, these styles can be linked to Nei Jia Quan as well.
Taoists claim the developed these Qi Gongs first.

[Royal Dragon]

Interesting. That would explain why I can't seem to find much on a Qi Gong specifically called the 18 Louhan hands.

I have Xui Xue Jing, and Yi Jin Jing. Are there any more to the system, or is this pretty much it?

I guess, I'm looking to figure out and define what the early Louhan Qi Gongs are, now that I know there is no specific set "Called" Shi Ba Louhan

[David Jamieson]

Much of it is also linked to Dhyana exercises who's practice predates the origin of the Shaolin Temple itself.

Dhayana exercises were and are the physical aspects of one's well being that is associated with the spiritual cultivation derived from living the 8 fold path.

[Sal Canzonieri]

There are tons of Buddhist Qi Gongs and Taoist Qi Gongs that Shaolin incorporates.

After the Muscle / Tendon Changing and the Brain / Bone Marrow Cleansing ones, the next famous Qi Gong is the
Eight Brocade Sections, from the Song Dynasty, which is often attributed to General Yue Fei.

[richard sloan]

we have mention of a laolohan form...

the story we have is that the 18 original hands were expanded to 18 sets, and each set further contains 3 sections, and again 3 subsections.

what makes you think it is lost?

[Royal Dragon]

I am of the understanding that there were 3 Qi Gong sets originally. According to the legends I have been privy to, Yi Jin Jing, Xui Xue Jing, and Shi Ba Louhan Shou.

Yi Jin Jing is prominantly around, and so is Xui Xue Jing, however I haven't seen anything out of Song Shan Shaolin depticitng the Shi Ba Louhan Shou Qi Gong at all. In fact I can't even get a clear deffinition on what it is. Is it just another name for Yi Jin Jing and Xui Xue Jing as a system? Is it like Choy Lay Fut guys say, a posture holding Qi Gong containing 18 postures? Is it a series of 3 moving Qi Gong exercises like Mantis guys say?

My gut feeling is it was a Qi Gong set consisting of 18 postures that were held the way Yoga systems hold postures. But so far, I just don't see anything out of Song Shan Shaolin that resembles that. The only thing I see called Shi Ba Louhan Shou is a basic martial set, not a Qi Gong set.

Now, it has been sugjested that there isn't a Shi Ba Louhan shou, and it is mearly another name for Xui Xue Jing and/or Yi Jing Jing, and I am beginning to think that is the case here. Either that, or the original set is lost or evolved into something else.

Please keep in mind I'm just a Qwilow from Chicago, so I don't have access to Song Shan teachings except through those of you who have been there. I am trying to figure out the maze that is Shaolin by "remote controll", so to speak.

[Royal Dragon]

Here is a link to what the Choy Lay Fut guys say it is.

http://www.anan-do.com/images/eng_lohan.htm

Eighteen Lohan Kung is moderately dynamic and quite therapeutic. Most of the techniques, stances and postures are symmetrical, executed alternatively on both sides

When I was taught the set, I was taught 18 postures, held on each side. Mine is from a Choy Lay Fut guy, not sure what lineage, who taught me at a park in Elmwood pk back in the mid 90's

I was there doing Chung moo quan movements, and saw him there early one morning (Like 5:30 am) holding postures. We got to talking, and shortly after he taught me the set. He claimed to know the three original Qi Gong's of Da Mo, but any attempt to verify even what a definition of those three sets has basically led me to confusion.

Song Shan Shaolin now has a few videos of Yi Jin Jing, and Xui Xue jing out, so those two seem pretty clear, but Shi Ba Louhan shou is a jumble of things. I am stil trying to find independant confirmation that what I do is it, or just something more reacent that caries the name.

[mickey]

Royal Dragon,

Your 18 Lohan Kung comes from the Chan family of Choy Lay Fut. Howard Choy of Australia wrote an article about the form in Inside Kung Fu back in the 80's, when it was a good mag to read.

mickey

[mantis108]

I have been following these threads about Shaolin, Luohan, and such things. I must say that I am inclined to agreed mostly with r. (Shaolin). No offence but some of the information seems quite "offical press release" from the so-called Songshan Shaolin "lineage". I said offical because there seem to have a lot of the "party" direction or rather influence. Anyway, back to thread.

<<<I am well versed on the Lohan system and its history.>>>

Glad to hear this. I am looking forward for the expertise.

<<<All the lohan named forms in any southern chinese martial art style are from after 1644 and often they are named in HONOR of the 18 lohan, not cause they are derived from the original Shaolin Lohan forms. Most of the southern Lohan comes from the Five Ancestors style of south china.>>>

I am curious as to the theory behind this. Why of all things 18 Lohan? I have my theory on this but I would love to hear yours.

<<<The 18 Lohan Chi Gung of Northern Seven Star Mantis was also designed relatively recently and also in honor of the 18 lohan, but it is a chi-gung form that they developed based on some sound ideas.>>>

the mantis 18 Luohan is based on a manuscript by Hsing Hsiao Dao Ren, who said he learned it from Fu Ju. It is also a part of 18 Luohan Duanda (Short strikes of 18 Arhat). Personally, I am in agreement with some Mainland scholars that that particular manuscripts could have been a hoax especially the 18 styles stories. It is rather a rearranging of a few Ming dynasty MA works. Having said that it doesn't mean that there is little to no value with the maunscript. I believe that it borrowed heavily from some branch of Tongbi (through the arm) and Pigua. BTW, Tongbi as a term seems to be a late Ming early Qing convention. There are also a lot of variations of this manuscript floating around as well.

I am also curious as to what sound ideas are you referring to? You just peaked my interest.

<<<The 18 lohan chi gung of Shaolin, the original one, is really the same thing as the Yi Jin Jing. Its just a another name for it.
And it did not come from Damo, that's fake story.>>>

I don't practice this so I have no comment.

<<<There are various lohan forms from Shaolin that are way over 1,000 years old. These are martial arts forms, they are the
18 Lohan Fists form.
the Xiao Lohan
the Da Lohan (which is almost forgotten now in Shaolin there are like 3 people that know it all the way through)
the 18 Lohan Hands forms ( a series of short forms).
The Lao Jia Lohan (a lost form)
and some other ones.>>>

Well, I thought that long forms 10 - 20 moves plus are a relatively modern thing. I don't know. No offence, this claim is really to me stretching it quite a bit.

<<<The Lohan style is one of the first forms from Shaolin, it was developed by mixing Shuai Jiao with boxing. All the moves can be done as takedowns or as boxing, but nowadays only a few people know the takedowns, but they are easier to discipher of you know Shuai Jiao.>>>

I am curious as to which boxing would this be? What is the frame work or structure is used to build the luohan style? Shuai Jiao has some striking already and it is a stand alone style, is it not? why or who has this idea of mixing? Would you elaborate, please?

Thank you for sheding lights on these matters.

Regards

Mantis108

[Sal Canzonieri]

Phew, here's my response to your questions, thanks:

Why the 18 Lohan mentions in Southern Shaoin?
Lohan pretty much died out after Jue Yuan and Bai Yu Feng developing what later became known as the Five Animals style. (there are some lineages that arise from Shaolin in the Henan area that continued their practice of Shaolin Lohan and when their forms are compared to those still done as traditional style Shaolin forms they are pretty darn close to exact.)
All the people who are recorded as being students of Jue Yuan and students of students eventually trace to people who moved to southern china and helped develop the Southern Shaolin Styles, like Choy gar, Li Gar, etc., especially Choy Gar. The earliest ancestor to Choy gar stayed at Shaolin after the Ming lost to the Ching, he was an army officer, an uncle of the Ming Emperor, hid out there and eventually moved south when it got too hot to stay.

Now these styles that developed in the south continued their oral teaching that their Five Animals style came from Lohan originally, hence someone somewhere in their lineage coming up with their idea of what a lohan form was like, especially if they saw Five Ancestor's style of the south do the Lohan forms within their system.
Maybe Choy Gar (and hence Choy Li Fut style) indeed did pass on a 18 Lohan form from Jue Yuan's time, I have to still compare their moves to the ancient 18 Lohan forms.
what I saw at the website looks like Ca-ca though.
Did you know that originally, in their early days, the Hung gar style taught a form called Xiao Lohan? This surely must have come from Henan Shaolin originally, cause some of of the two oldest more reverered and passed on form from teacher to teacher through the centuries has been the Xiao and the Da Lohan forms, which are nearly forgotten in their original lengths and moves today in Shaolin.

Well, Lohan is essentially Shuai Jiao, like I mentioned before, I can do whole forms as Shuai Jiao takedowns in the exact same sequence of moves instead of as punches and kicks and they jib perfectly, just different why to feel out the applications to these moves in the forms. Also, many of the moves in the Lohan forms are tong bei quan moves, which though not called that, are ancient techniques that go back thousands of years in China and are based on sword fighting movements as hand fighting movements. By boxing, I meant that they moves from Shuai Jiao and Tung Bei were done as boxing style moves, by these ancient people, why? for fun. or cause they forgot the non boxing applications of the moves in the forms.

So, of course there is value in the Mantis Lohan Qi Gong form, why not? Long as it is based on true Mantis (tong bei meets Tai Tzu Quan) ideas. I have a copy here of the old hand drawn manuscript (by Hsing Hsiao Dao Ren?) that the Mantis Lohan Qi Gong is based on, and it is obviously the Muscle Tendon Changing and the Eight Section Brocade moves. And the hand drawn book looks like just like every book I have that comes from the Ching Dynasty. The Mantis version just "mantisized" the moves a lot, but its still just really the moves from those two well known exercises, nothing mysterious.
If you are looking for the real Lohan from ancient times, it's not like that Choy Li Fut thing, exept in some shallow surface looking way.
I know the ancient 18 Lohan Fists form like the back of my hand and it is not anything like the moves in either of those Qi Gong forms. In the 18 Lohan Fists, I can clearly see the old qi Shaolin Qi Gongs, and I can feel them in the moves, when correctly executed the muscles of my body spiral around my bones and my tendon coil and uncoil like a spring.

The original Da Lohan that goes way back to pre-song dynasty is 108 moves, if you do all the subforms of this form. You think that 20 moves are long forms? All the short forms I know are at least 30-40 moves, they feel really short to me (Lien Wuan, Xiao Hong Quan, Tai Tzi Quan, Lien Bu, etc).

Also, there is a form in Mantis called 18 "ancients" Quan or something like that.
Well, if I look at the form, the 18 Lohan Fists form that I know is hidden inside it, all the moves are done in the same order, just "mantisized".
So, that is something weird but it must be a clue, yes?

[JAZA]

Sal,

Who gives you the authority to say that the form you know predates CLF 18 luohan.

I'm not an expert, just a bad practitioner, but I'm sure this version is as original as any other from the Shaolin tradition can be.

The CLF tradition says that this form is the extended version of Bak Juk Fung that was taught to Chan Heung by Choy Fook. The Choy of CLF is in honor to Choy Fook, it is not related to Choy Gar.

The images in the website are doing with soft jing in higher postures.
You can see images of this form in this site too: http://www.luohan.com/html_uk/uk_luotechnical.html

This form is simmetrical, a trademark of Shaolin, and can be done with different expressions of jing.

This form is based in the san bao, in conjuction with siu and dai lohan develops the jing, chi and shen.

Peace

[Royal Dragon]

Mickey,

Thanks for the lineage info. I was never told where it came from when i learned it. I only know the guy did Choy Lay Fut.


http://www.luohan.com/html_uk/uk_luotechnical.html


The above is pretty much my 18 Louhan exactly.

[mantis108]

<<<Phew, here's my response to your questions, thanks:>>>

First and foremost, thank you for taking the time to respond to my queries. I really appreciate that.

<<<Why the 18 Lohan mentions in Southern Shaoin?
Lohan pretty much died out after Jue Yuan and Bai Yu Feng developing what later became known as the Five Animals style. (there are some lineages that arise from Shaolin in the Henan area that continued their practice of Shaolin Lohan and when their forms are compared to those still done as traditional style Shaolin forms they are pretty darn close to exact.)
All the people who are recorded as being students of Jue Yuan and students of students eventually trace to people who moved to southern china and helped develop the Southern Shaolin Styles, like Choy gar, Li Gar, etc., especially Choy Gar. The earliest ancestor to Choy gar stayed at Shaolin after the Ming lost to the Ching, he was an army officer, an uncle of the Ming Emperor, hid out there and eventually moved south when it got too hot to stay.>>>

I think I begin to get a sense of your perspective. Personally, I believe it is a daunting task to try to reconcile both northern and southern records especially there are plenty of "oral traditions" floating around. It would seem that you alluded to the Tien Di Hui story as well as southern Shaolin legends as welll. BTW, I think your position on the Northern Shaolin is inline with most government approved publications. That's very interesting. In a way, we are somewhat on similar wave length when dealing with the Tien Di Hui and Southern Shaolin.

<<<Now these styles that developed in the south continued their oral teaching that their Five Animals style came from Lohan originally, hence someone somewhere in their lineage coming up with their idea of what a lohan form was like, especially if they saw Five Ancestor's style of the south do the Lohan forms within their system.>>>

I would caution that this is rather generalized and perhaps a bit narrow focused in the Shaolin perspective. I do think that secret societies (ie Tien Di Hui) and cults (ie White Lotus) played a rather crucial part in the development of Southern "Shaolin" Kung Fu. Shaolin might just be a front in some cases to camouflage the intentions and identities of the rebellions.

<<<Maybe Choy Gar (and hence Choy Li Fut style) indeed did pass on a 18 Lohan form from Jue Yuan's time, I have to still compare their moves to the ancient 18 Lohan forms.
what I saw at the website looks like Ca-ca though.>>>

Um... there is Choy Gar, a particular southern style and there is the Choy Gar in CLF. I think they are not the one and the same if I am not mistaken. I am not too familar with CLF but it would be interesting to know if Choy Fook is the same person as Tien Di Hui's Choy Duk Ying. I don't believe they are the same person. But I could be wrong.

<<<Did you know that originally, in their early days, the Hung gar style taught a form called Xiao Lohan?>>>

He's another problem. Hung Gar, that's from Chi Sim to Hung Hey Koon, IMHO could have been a spin off of Yong Chun He Fa (Crane method of Yong Chun), which was the original Fujian White Crane. I am not sure if Hung Hey Koon passed down actual luohan form in his lines. His other Sihingdei though had luohan form that Hung students such as Lam Sai Wing might have picked up and subsequantly included in the famous Fu Hok Seung Ying.

<<<This surely must have come from Henan Shaolin originally, cause some of of the two oldest more reverered and passed on form from teacher to teacher through the centuries has been the Xiao and the Da Lohan forms, which are nearly forgotten in their original lengths and moves today in Shaolin.>>>

I am not family with that. So I can't comment on it. Interesting info though. Thanks

<<<Well, Lohan is essentially Shuai Jiao, like I mentioned before, I can do whole forms as Shuai Jiao takedowns in the exact same sequence of moves instead of as punches and kicks and they jib perfectly, just different why to feel out the applications to these moves in the forms.>>>

This is rather hard to visualize not to mention that Shuai Jiao as it is known today do not use forms or long patterns as their training methodology. So it's hard to imagine Shuai Jiao is one and the same as Luohan. It could be said that there are Shuai elements in Luohan but it's just too hard to link the 2 "systems" together for me. Now even Shuai elements don't have to come from Shuai Jiao. Unless there are records to proof that there were Shuai Jiao people exchanged knowledge with Shaolin. Would such record exists?

<<<Also, many of the moves in the Lohan forms are tong bei quan moves, which though not called that, are ancient techniques that go back thousands of years in China and are based on sword fighting movements as hand fighting movements. By boxing, I meant that they moves from Shuai Jiao and Tung Bei were done as boxing style moves, by these ancient people, why? for fun. or cause they forgot the non boxing applications of the moves in the forms.>>>

Well, this is again very hard to believe. I am sorry but as far as I am aware Tongbi similar to Shuai Jiao didn't have long forms. Tongbi used to have 24 moves (3 sections of 8 each.) So, I am really really having a hard time to see long form based system like Luohan comes first. I might have missing something in your post somewhere. I just don't see it, sorry.

<<<So, of course there is value in the Mantis Lohan Qi Gong form, why not? Long as it is based on true Mantis (tong bei meets Tai Tzu Quan) ideas.>>>

I am not from the 7 stars Mantis lineage. I am from the Taiji/Meihwa Manits lineage. I am also the minority in not buying the story of 18 styles forming the Shandong mantis system as we know it.

<<<I have a copy here of the old hand drawn manuscript (by Hsing Hsiao Dao Ren?) that the Mantis Lohan Qi Gong is based on, and it is obviously the Muscle Tendon Changing and the Eight Section Brocade moves. >>>

If you do have an old hand drawn manuscript of "Shaolin Authentics" or "Duan Da Mi Ciao" (and any varation thereof), you would indeed be a very lucky man because we would all want to get our hands on it. When you say copy this wouldn't be the one by Wong Hon Fun?

<<<And the hand drawn book looks like just like every book I have that comes from the Ching Dynasty. The Mantis version just "mantisized" the moves a lot, but its still just really the moves from those two well known exercises, nothing mysterious.>>>

I agreed nothing mysterious but I am not sure about " mantisized". I have seen a few versions and practice one of the 18 Luohan based on the manuscript. Non of the versions that I know is "mantisized" nor there are moves from mantis in them. However, there are element that seems to share with Classical Tanglang Neigong forms such as Ba Duan Jin Shen Fa and San Hui Jiu Zhuan Huan Yang Fa.

<<<If you are looking for the real Lohan from ancient times, it's not like that Choy Li Fut thing, exept in some shallow surface looking way.>>>

I am just curious as to how it can be proven there was a "real Luohan" form from ancient time? What prompted you to come to that conclusion? That's really fascination.

<<<I know the ancient 18 Lohan Fists form like the back of my hand and it is not anything like the moves in either of those Qi Gong forms. In the 18 Lohan Fists, I can clearly see the old qi Shaolin Qi Gongs, and I can feel them in the moves, when correctly executed the muscles of my body spiral around my bones and my tendon coil and uncoil like a spring.>>>

Thank you for sharing the insight. I wish there is a visual to get the gist of what you are saying.

<<<The original Da Lohan that goes way back to pre-song dynasty is 108 moves, if you do all the subforms of this form.>>>

How do you come to this conclusion of such a long form exist pre-Song dynasty?

<<<You think that 20 moves are long forms? All the short forms I know are at least 30-40 moves, they feel really short to me (Lien Wuan, Xiao Hong Quan, Tai Tzi Quan, Lien Bu, etc).>>>

Xingyi is said to be living fossil of Song dynasty martial arts. It's contain no long patterned forms but indivdual moves. Granted they would link the 5 fists and 12 animals to a "form" but that's not particularly long more than 50 moves. A full length of 108 moves form pre dating Song is very hard to believe. But that's perhaps my ignorence?

<<<Also, there is a form in Mantis called 18 "ancients" Quan or something like that.>>>

That is within the 7 star Mantis tradition. It has more to do with the 18 styles story that about Luohan I believe.

<<<Well, if I look at the form, the 18 Lohan Fists form that I know is hidden inside it, all the moves are done in the same order, just "mantisized".>>>

Really? I am sure the 7 star Mantis people would be happy to hear that. I am not from the 7 star lineage so I would reserve my comments on that.

<<<So, that is something weird but it must be a clue, yes?>>>

It's very interesing indeed. Could be very useful to the 7 star lines. Thanks

Regards

Mantis108

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally posted by JAZA
Sal,

Who gives you the authority to say that the form you know predates CLF 18 luohan.

I'm not an expert, just a bad practitioner, but I'm sure this version is as original as any other from the Shaolin tradition can be.

The CLF tradition says that this form is the extended version of Bak Juk Fung that was taught to Chan Heung by Choy Fook. The Choy of CLF is in honor to Choy Fook, it is not related to Choy Gar.

The images in the website are doing with soft jing in higher postures.
You can see images of this form in this site too: http://www.luohan.com/html_uk/uk_luotechnical.html

This form is simmetrical, a trademark of Shaolin, and can be done with different expressions of jing.

This form is based in the san bao, in conjuction with siu and dai lohan develops the jing, chi and shen.

Peace

Well, the form looks a lot better at this website you gave than at the other website. I meant no offense against the style or the form itself, just how it looked at that first website cited. I'm not in any way saying that the form itself is not valid or not authentic nor not "old".

But I have to say, without malice, that the Lohan Qi Gong and the Xiao and Da Lohan forms and so on shown and described on this site you just cited are very different from any nothern Shaolin Lohan forms. It would be interesting to trace how they came about to exist and how it got from one place to another.

The 18 Lohan forms that I and others know are almost 2,000 years old, like most of the original Lohan forms. That has been well documented and well perserved in Shaolin both within and outside the temple. Lohan are the oldest Shaolin forms.