Wing Chun Qi Gong

[Yoshiyahu]

i disagree

Dude, you started the thread by showing what you feel is WC chi gung and it being a part of WC. Instead of asking everyone else, you should be telling us it's purpose for being in WC as you put it!!
I'm surprised you can't answer that yourself! (well, maybe I'm not as surprised after reading your threads for a while now)



Wow dude, make up your mind (or lay down the pipe). Are you talking Chi Gung in general or Chi Gung in WC, which BTW is the the title of your thread? Chi Gung by itself it for energy clutivation (among other things). By itself, it doesn't need to follow any structures and has many benifits - no one is arguing that. Why are you having such a hard time understanding this? Should we try another language or use simpler words or something?

Look, you're the one that started this thread with your idea of what is 'WC Chi Gung'. Once you make Chi Gung an integral part of the WC system, it should be supportive of that system and it's primary goal should be for developing WCK energetics and structural usage under the system's primary principles. Otherwise, just treat it as general excersize like any other suplimental training that you do in addition to your WC training and stop mixing things together.

Bottom line, that excersize in your orignal post is not a part of WCK as most everyone knows it. It breaks some of the most basic fundamental principles of WCK and does not work in developing any real, usable WCK body methods or energetics and therefore does not fit 'within' the system. But that doesn't mean is still isn't without benifit. It's just not WCK

[kentchang]

Once you make Chi Gung an integral part of the WC system, it should be supportive of that system and it's primary goal should be for developing WCK energetics and structural usage under the system's primary principles. Otherwise, just treat it as general excersize like any other suplimental training that you do in addition to your WC training and stop mixing things together.

Well said, I agree!

[JPinAZ]

i disagree

I figured that much And you are welcome to your opinion.
But, just to be clear that you even understood what I was saying, what parts did you disagree with? The part where you can't make up your mind what you're talking about?
Or that you can't answer the questions yourself? Or that you should put the pipe down?
I would ask you ask you to explain why you disagree, but you've already had 3 chances to explain yourself and have failed.

Just saying "I disagree" isn't saying anything at all. You say you are here to share, well, until you can give me a counterpoint of your own why you dissagree, the conversation is over.

[YouKnowWho]

what parts did you disagree with?

Sometime when you express your opinion, people may say, "You are wrong". It may put you into a situation that you don't know whether you should response to that post or not. If you just ignore that post, nothing will happen. If you response to that post, people may say "You are wrong again". What will you do after that?

A: IMO, ...
B: You are wrong!
A: What I mean was ...
B: You are wrong again.
A:

[JPinAZ]

What you quoted was a rhetorical question. Maybe next time, quote the rest of the thought so you keep the context.
Btw, I could care less about being right or wrong. I am not here for that.

[wtxs]

@ JPinAZ - Hey man, how is that IRON FOREHEAD training coming along? Figuring all that time and efforts you had banging away against the brick wall and all, that oughtta make for some nasty WC headbutts.

[Yoshiyahu]

@ JPinAZ - Hey man, how is that IRON FOREHEAD training coming along? Figuring all that time and efforts you had banging away against the brick wall and all, that oughtta make for some nasty WC headbutts.

lol thats funny!!!

What you quoted was a rhetorical question. Maybe next time, quote the rest of the thought so you keep the context.
Btw, I could care less about being right or wrong. I am not here for that.

I agree with this below...this is proving my point that Chi gung by it self doesn't need to follow any structures and has many benefits!!!

"Chi Gung by itself it for energy clutivation (among other things). By itself, it doesn't need to follow any structures and has many benifits - no one is arguing that."

Here is where we differ. I agree some Chi Gung exercises may be done in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma. Most of which comes right out of SLT and CK. So I agree with that. But thats a small part of Chi Gung in Wing Chun. YGKYM is just a small subset of chi gung structure. You dont have to be in the wing chun horse to be doing wing chun chi gung. Nor do you have to be following on the hand motions from the forms of wing chun to be doing chi gung.

There is chi gung exercises which reinforce the structure and wc posture which is more related to Jing. An their is chi gung exercises which cultivates the chi and shen which doesn't follow the WC structure and WC posture. sitting down in half lotus meditating controlling your breathing is also wc chi gung. Standing still in no horse meditating on sinking your chi is also wing chun chi gung. It enhances your WC does it not? What I am sharing is what I learn from my sifu when it comes to wing chun. There are other chi gung drills he taught me like cloud hands, tai chi circle and others that are not apart of WC. The Tea cup however is apart of the WC...

Look, you're the one that started this thread with your idea of what is 'WC Chi Gung'. Once you make Chi Gung an integral part of the WC system, it should be supportive of that system and it's primary goal should be for developing WCK energetics and structural usage under the system's primary principles. Otherwise, just treat it as general excersize like any other suplimental training that you do in addition to your WC training and stop mixing things together.

The Exercises like the Tea cup I listed is apart of YKS WC curriculm. so i guess to those who practice that WC feel it is apart of the WC system. First of all the purpsose is to cleanse the bone marrow and stregnthed the kidneys. What makes something apart of WC system is the introduction of it into that System. Iron Sand Palm and darts are also apart of YKS system. Personally I dont practice either. But its still apart of it...BEcause it was introduced by YKS. What ever your sifu, sigung or wing chun ancestors bring into that art is essentially apart of that system. it becomes the system...this i disagree with...that since you feel it doesn't look linear enough its not wing chun....The body is not bound to a fix posistion. Nor is the cultivation of your chi!

Bottom line, that excersize in your orignal post is not a part of WCK as most everyone knows it. It breaks some of the most basic fundamental principles of WCK and does not work in developing any real, usable WCK body methods or energetics and therefore does not fit 'within' the system. But that doesn't mean is still isn't without benifit. It's just not WCK

Sometime when you express your opinion, people may say, "You are wrong". It may put you into a situation that you don't know whether you should response to that post or not. If you just ignore that post, nothing will happen. If you response to that post, people may say "You are wrong again". What will you do after that?

A: IMO, ...
B: You are wrong!
A: What I mean was ...
B: You are wrong again.
A:

gosh darn it...did he just prove your point with the post above!!!

[JPinAZ]

@ JPinAZ - Hey man, how is that IRON FOREHEAD training coming along? Figuring all that time and efforts you had banging away against the brick wall and all, that oughtta make for some nasty WC headbutts.

haha, yeah, it's cool. I know he's not going to get it, but then, I don't really post here for his benifit. I'm hoping someone else can get something out of it, or present me with a good opinion that differs from mine so I might learn something too

[JPinAZ]

I'll reply only because you are actually attempting to give your own POV and not yelling

Here is where we differ. I agree some Chi Gung exercises may be done in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma. Most of which comes right out of SLT and CK. So I agree with that. But thats a small part of Chi Gung in Wing Chun. YGKYM is just a small subset of chi gung structure. You dont have to be in the wing chun horse to be doing wing chun chi gung. Nor do you have to be following on the hand motions from the forms of wing chun to be doing chi gung.

Who said anything about WCK chi gung only being done in YGKYM? Why can't you just read what people write instead of making up stuff to prove your points?
And who said "you have to following on the hand motions from the forms of wing chun to be doing chi gung"? Please provide a quote.

Regardless, if you are not using WCK body methods in chi gung, most likely what you are doing is not really a part of WCK system. Body methods being used in chi gung means more than just post standing in YJKYK or doing forms btw.

Example: In HFY we have jiam jong training. The first part of this, yes, you are YJKMY. The beginning focus is on heaven human and earth hand postured and breathing. Later, the focus is on faat ging training of various wck hand methods for using in gate defense as well as overal ging energy training. And in soe of this sequence, the horse does move.

Example: We also have keung jong/dip gwat gung SLT training. this works on breathing, but also bone grinding energy along with development for muscles and tendons. There is some footwork as well as multiple hand methods.
BUT, at ALL TIMES, you are using proper spine alignment, structural considerations, tools, footwork and energetics that are directly suportive of WCK principles and theories. No bending over backwards with your hand behind your head. That IMO, is NOT WCK. If you feel it is, please show me one WCK clip of anyone using that position to defend against a live energy attack. Heck, it doesn't even have to be WCK

There is chi gung exercises which reinforce the structure and wc posture which is more related to Jing.

So I better understand you, please explain some of these for me as I have done for you.

An their is chi gung exercises which cultivates the chi and shen which doesn't follow the WC structure and WC posture.

Yes, and they are most likely clearly seen in another TCMA system and not WCK. So maybe, just maybe, they aren't really a part of WCK system but just some teachers prefered suplimental training he gave to a student for further developments.

sitting down in half lotus meditating controlling your breathing is also wc chi gung.

Actually, this is pretty common chi gung taught in abundance and not really WCK specific. You could also add swimming to WCK training/curriculm, but that doesn't mean it's a part of the WCK system.

Standing still in no horse meditating on sinking your chi is also wing chun chi gung. It enhances your WC does it not?

I don't know, does it? And if so, how?

What I am sharing is what I learn from my sifu when it comes to wing chun. There are other chi gung drills he taught me like cloud hands, tai chi circle and others that are not apart of WC. The Tea cup however is apart of the WC...

Why then is that tea cup excersize seen so often as not part of WC as the others you listed? What EXACTLY makes that excersize WC chi gung while the others aren't beside your sifu telling you it is? Can you explain, as I have to you, in your own words and experience why it is but cloud hands is not?
I appreciate that this is what your sifu taught you, but I've always been taught to be able to speak from my own experiences and reasoning and not to just trust "what sifu says".

BTW, who is your sifu? Is he the black gentleman from St. Luois that has videos on youtube training in his backyard?

The Exercises like the Tea cup I listed is apart of YKS WC curriculm. so i guess to those who practice that WC feel it is apart of the WC system.

Ok, now you are saying what I've been trying to get thru to you for days now! My point is, the curriculm is NOT the system:
If someone added some excersize from another art to the WC curriculm, that doesn't make it part of WC system. WC system is the the principles/concepts/theories. It is not the drills, excersizes, etc. The only way it could be 'part of the system' is if it still works under those guidlines. Anything else, and it's not WC system.
This tea cup excersize does not fit those parameters. So ok, it's part of your curriculm - your training regiment. Swimming could be in there too. but again, that is not the system.

What makes something apart of WC system is the introduction of it into that System.

Wrong. By that logic, why couldn't you add cloud hands, or tai chi circle, or even spinning back kicks or back handsprings to WC and call it part of the system?

Maybe the probelm is our definitions of WC system and WC curriculm. Could you please give me your definition?

Iron Sand Palm and darts are also apart of YKS system. Personally I dont practice either. But its still apart of it...BEcause it was introduced by YKS. What ever your sifu, sigung or wing chun ancestors bring into that art is essentially apart of that system. it becomes the system...this i disagree with...that since you feel it doesn't look linear enough its not wing chun....The body is not bound to a fix posistion. Nor is the cultivation of your chi!.

Now we're getting to the meat of it, and again your logic is completely flawed.

People can add whatever they want. There are no rules for what you can or can't do, add or take away. But if someone adds a side rolling running jumping front flip kick of doom to thier list of technique and it breaks WCK principles, sorry pal, it's not WC. But, if you add a technique and it still works within the original concepts, body methods and & framework, then you're still doing WCK!
Because again, the system isn't the technique.

[Runlikehell]

Iron Sand Palm and darts are also apart of YKS system. Personally I dont practice either. But its still apart of it...BEcause it was introduced by YKS. What ever your sifu, sigung or wing chun ancestors bring into that art is essentially apart of that system. it becomes the system...this i disagree with...that since you feel it doesn't look linear enough its not wing chun....The body is not bound to a fix posistion. Nor is the cultivation of your chi!

With all due respect, the darts are said to be lost. GM Sum Nung had apparently said his skill with them could not compare to that of his Sifu, so he either did not finish learning them or did not keep them as part of the curriculum.

I will say no more, as the topic will no doubt deviate.

[Phil Redmond]

Yes, my WC does have Chi Gung.

[Yoshiyahu]

With all due respect, the darts are said to be lost. GM Sum Nung had apparently said his skill with them could not compare to that of his Sifu, so he either did not finish learning them or did not keep them as part of the curriculum.

I will say no more, as the topic will no doubt deviate.

lol...really? wow thats pretty funny!!! you know what darts are right?

Theres not a blasted form for darts...Its like if a system has bow and arrow in it or a gun for that matter. It wont be special Wing chun way to use them...you use darts and practice them as you would any darts!!!

[Yoshiyahu]

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1152004]I'll reply only because you are actually attempting to give your own POV and not yelling [/QOUTE]

WHEN DO I YELL? lol

Who said anything about WCK chi gung only being done in YGKYM? Why can't you just read what people write instead of making up stuff to prove your points?
And who said "you have to following on the hand motions from the forms of wing chun to be doing chi gung"? Please provide a quote.

What do you mean by hand motions from the forms? is that the only hand motions you do for chi gung? what about hand motions not found in the forms can those be wing chun chi gung?

Regardless, if you are not using WCK body methods in chi gung, most likely what you are doing is not really a part of WCK system. Body methods being used in chi gung means more than just post standing in YJKYK or doing forms btw.

Please share some videos of what you call WC chi gung?

Example: In HFY we have jiam jong training. The first part of this, yes, you are YJKMY. The beginning focus is on heaven human and earth hand postured and breathing. Later, the focus is on faat ging training of various wck hand methods for using in gate defense as well as overal ging energy training. And in soe of this sequence, the horse does move.

Can you provide some video links of this?

Example: We also have keung jong/dip gwat gung SLT training. this works on breathing, but also bone grinding energy along with development for muscles and tendons. There is some footwork as well as multiple hand methods.
BUT, at ALL TIMES, you are using proper spine alignment, structural considerations, tools, footwork and energetics that are directly suportive of WCK principles and theories. No bending over backwards with your hand behind your head. That IMO, is NOT WCK. If you feel it is, please show me one WCK clip of anyone using that position to defend against a live energy attack. Heck, it doesn't even have to be WCK

Its not for combat or defending or attacking...The chi gung is for healing, cultivation and open meridians. I think your looking for martial application. I have to agree with you. You will not fight that way with the chi gung!!!

So I better understand you, please explain some of these for me as I have done for you.

I will break it down in another post after i responded too all your messages!

Yes, and they are most likely clearly seen in another TCMA system and not WCK. So maybe, just maybe, they aren't really a part of WCK system but just some teachers prefered suplimental training he gave to a student for further developments.

So if a system has been handing something down for fifty years or more is apart of that WC system?

Actually, this is pretty common chi gung taught in abundance and not really WCK specific. You could also add swimming to WCK training/curriculm, but that doesn't mean it's a part of the WCK system.

I agree that some chi gung overlaps in multiple arts...But where does chi gung originate from...From Shaolin...ne way thats another topic...but ne way...if something is incorporated into the WC system by a grand master...it is now wing chun!

I don't know, does it? And if so, how?

The long pole was added to WC by a non-wc sifu. Someone taught a WC disciple the long pole. He taught his Sifu and thus it became apart of system...so why cant Chi Gung be apart of it too! Again chi gung is develop chi not jing/ging. Ging you hit or strike with...chi is something different all together...Its no such thing as fachi...but there is fajing...the explosive power is your jing not your chi....chi is energy, jing is the power...chi is like blood, jing is like the nutrients...the nutrients in your blood helps your body grow...the blood carries the nutrients and oxygen through out your body. Jing is carried by chi..You develop chi by chi gung and shen through meditation and proper chi gung.

chi gung doesn't need to obey slt or any other form...it does have a certain body mechnics to it...if you look at single hoof technique what do you see happening?

Why then is that tea cup excersize seen so often as not part of WC as the others you listed? What EXACTLY makes that excersize WC chi gung while the others aren't beside your sifu telling you it is? Can you explain, as I have to you, in your own words and experience why it is but cloud hands is not?
I appreciate that this is what your sifu taught you, but I've always been taught to be able to speak from my own experiences and reasoning and not to just trust "what sifu says".

i agree i will share what and why in a second

BTW, who is your sifu? Is he the black gentleman from St. Luois that has videos on youtube training in his backyard?

actually No...he is a friend and my older brother "Sihing". His teacher was different than mines...His training was different also.

my teacher was much more into chi cultivation, softness, and flow. These are somethings he dwelled on...My teacher doesn't have any videos up on youtube...His teacher does...but his teacher has changed the WC system he taught over 25 years ago and now its a mixture of choy li fut and wc! His name is Robert Lee McField. My teacher name is Wilbert Smith.

Ok, now you are saying what I've been trying to get thru to you for days now! My point is, the curriculm is NOT the system:

If someone added some excersize from another art to the WC curriculm, that doesn't make it part of WC system. WC system is the the principles/concepts/theories. It is not the drills, excersizes, etc. The only way it could be 'part of the system' is if it still works under those guidlines. Anything else, and it's not WC system.
This tea cup excersize does not fit those parameters. So ok, it's part of your curriculm - your training regiment. Swimming could be in there too. but again, that is not the system.

Okay well i will say its apart of my wing chun system...When i have kids an teach them it will be apart of their wing chun system too!

Wrong. By that logic, why couldn't you add cloud hands, or tai chi circle, or even spinning back kicks or back handsprings to WC and call it part of the system?

Some have added that to WC systems of other lineages...i dont know about cloud hands...But there is a variation of cloud hands in the WC systems in mainland china...i have seen videos way back of them...i cant find as of the date...but they are not tai chi cloud hands at all..they are more like chi sau jau sau. or running hands done with out a partner...They go into two directions...one is inside gum sau and the other outside like tan sau
Maybe the probelm is our definitions of WC system and WC curriculm. Could you please give me your definition?

The WC system - is the culmination of all the techniques, drills, exercises, kungs(strenght building exercises), sparring, forms, weapons, and anything else taught to you to enhance your wing chun...

Now we're getting to the meat of it, and again your logic is completely flawed.

People can add whatever they want. There are no rules for what you can or can't do, add or take away. But if someone adds a side rolling running jumping front flip kick of doom to thier list of technique and it breaks WCK principles, sorry pal, it's not WC. But, if you add a technique and it still works within the original concepts, body methods and & framework, then you're still doing WCK!
Because again, the system isn't the technique.

WC doesnt bob and weave...atleast my lineage doesn't...but some WC sifus have added bobbing and weaving, sticking and moving, round house kicks, high kicks, i believe william cheung even has a jump in one of weapon forms...some people even have a ducking move!

[Yoshiyahu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJe7k4vlFvg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGrLe...eature=related

these videos are various chi gung methods YKS sifus teach...

I will break down the chi gung purpose an methods later when i list them!!!



First off let me break down the chi gung in YKS sumnung WC he added to the System!

when i say system...I mean YKS wing chun system...Not Yip Man, Not Ip Chun, Not Kulo, Not Yik Kam, Not ne Phillip Bayer!


Now as for where the chi gung comes from:

The kidney breathing exercises are rumored to have come originally from the Emei mountain temples of Sichuan province

Second before i begin read this qoute:

Wing chun hei gung (qigong, breathing/intrinsic energy work) is not a singular phenomenon. Different branches of wing chun kuen, as may be expected, view hei gung and its training in different ways. Some, like the Sum Nung branch have forms in addition to the usual boxing, dummy, and weapons sets to train hei gung. Others prefer to focus exclusively on the sets and see no need for separate hei gung forms. Neither approach is in and of itself better then the other, but by knowing the differences, practitioners can make up their own mind, based on their own needs.

the chi gung is different that WC structure? why is that read this qoute:

Why, then, are there separate hei gung forms in some branches? Simply because, to achieve its great results as a martial art, wing chun makes use of certain specific body structure ideas and methods of motion. The kidney breathing exercises give the practitioner a way to step outside this model and perform movements not contained in the forms, but desirable from a hei gung standpoint. It also means a practitioner does not have to alter the structure nor sacrifice the reflexes they develop within the forms simply to gain some extra hei gung benefit.

A form of yit gan (yi jin, tendon changing), the kidney breathing exercises put a practitioner through a good range of motion in order to improve health. In terms of martial benefit, it is know that when Sum Nung trained the exercises, he achieved a form of body resilience.

His Chi gung is way different than WC body Structure!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOICLCX7YRw


William cheung does a jumping leap...is that WC system?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke06luhv_nU

[Runlikehell]

lol...really? wow thats pretty funny!!! you know what darts are right?

Theres not a blasted form for darts...Its like if a system has bow and arrow in it or a gun for that matter. It wont be special Wing chun way to use them...you use darts and practice them as you would any darts!!!

Did I ever say that Fung Siu Ching, Yuen Kay San or Sum Nung created a form for the darts? No.

Of course I know what darts are. I was just relaying what I'd heard. Doesn't mean that they couldn't have been added back in along the line, or taught as a supplement.

Once again, I don't want to divert the thread so I'll say no more.