White Ape sets

[yu shan]

18 Elders, I here ya. I got swept the same way, and it really does not take much. This elongated version of jade ring is in my opinion, not practical, but it is aesthetlcally pleasing to the eye. Our stance is ugly, but works!

The knowledge Master Shr has learned from over 40 GrandTeachers, should be respected. I am with you on this.

[shang wu]

Take any stance and just stand there with it and you can be swept on your ass, some may seem easier than others but a static stance can be swept. Mantis is mobile and adaptive, the stance I think we are talking about is used in waist chopping so in the right place it is not vulnerable to a sweep. If you want to stand in front of someone and not move yes you will go down.

As for your comments about master shr’s life study of mantis, you come off like he is the authority with that experience, and it sounds like a put down on others like Zhang laoshi and anyone else that differs from master shr’s way of doing things.

I am by no means the expert on all of this but I can certainly see attitudes that are less than productive to any debate on the subject. Too much pride lacks humility and after it is all said and done were is wude in all of this. We are all looking for our way in this. And after a couple of seminars with Zhang laoshi it would be far reaching to think that you , yu shan or I represent his knowledge and teaching

[flem]

Shang Wu,

Yes I agree just about any stance can be swept. In my opinion the Pong Lai stance is too tight, in most instances I think it is more practical than the one I was taught, but I think the best is happy medium. Of course I will hear plenty of arguement on this, but the Pong Lai version seems as though it could easily be "over run" with a lunge or charge forward, or I should say one particular weakness. I also don't think that the rear leg position offers enough power without repositioning it first.
But like you said who am I to question. I think all of these particulars are subject to their place in history. For instance with Pong Lai, it may be that it is adapted to a time or place that favors knee attacks, or some other attack that is used excessively.

[yu shan]

excuse me for living but the grave yards full. If you think I have an attitude, you are a little sensitive today.

I do happen to think Shr ZhengZhong is an authority here. JMO

Have a wonderful day.

[shang wu]

Yu Shan
yes I ‘m glad your alive as well, you are quite a nice guy. I was directing my comment to 18, I also agree that Shr laoshi is AN authority, what was missed in my post was the word THE. So please excuse me if I offended you it was not my intent. Really, sorry no harm meant

[flem]

Yu Shan,

One thing that I don't understand, well, I do, but am wondering if you do. First aren't "you" an authority. I believe that you are. And if you are, can't you question the validity of what you learn? Yes, your sigung is an authority, but is his the last word? It is one thing to be humble and quite another to be subservient. Even though your Sigung has such a rich history, does not mean that he is always right, nor does it mean that you cannot add your piece to history. I think(I don't know, just taking what I've seen of his posts/that and I know him) that Tainan Mantis, though humble and completely respectful, tests what he learns, and cross references it for validity. I am not making a point for or against the stance we are speaking of, but rather the view that because so and so does it this way, it has to be right.

[18elders]

the tightness of the stance is used to check, trap or attack your opponents front leg and also protect your groin. the extended stance doesn't offer this. Mantis is in tight fighting, it is easy to use this stance when attacking so it would be hard for your opponent to run over you.

Shang, yes he is an authority, but if you take master zhangs training and master Shr's training and teachers i believe master Shr has trained with many more mantis masters. It would be safe to say he has had more mantis experience so i think his knowledge would be more in depth. With that in mind i would tend to go with what he showed me.
I have trained with both and there is a difference.
I didn't see it as an attitude but as an explanation of the difference in the stance and why a person would do one over the other.

This would've been an interesting topic to discuss with master Shr when we was here a few months ago.

[sayloc]

Flem

I must still be reading your posts wrong.


Everyone else

I would like to ask the nice people involved with this post when was the last time you had the gear on and fought some san shou? You can go full contact kick low, grab legs, take down whatever you want.

That will teach you exactly how to use any particular stance if it could be used at all. All of the discussion using it to be in close for a check or whatever is usless if you have never used it in an up to speed fight (not two person set).

You will find that many stances are used in an instant to lock in a technique as it is thrown. You would look foolish if stay in a jade ring stance or what ever you call it for long at all. We must remeber that the transitions are just as important if not more than the ending stance with a technique.

Some of the applications people describe would almost be impossiblle in a full speed situation.

Yeah. if you stand in front of a guy in a jade ring stance for one minute you are gong to get swept.

Try the san shou, one of my students is a 42 year old mother of six and she does it.

Practicing white ape steals the peach can teach you some of these transitions and stances (that was for you Bei)

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Learning from a lot of teachers is great. It gives you a wide range of perspectives. I suspect even differences of OPINION on things such as the proper way to execute a stance. To form YOUR OWN OPINION and pass that on, or pass on the OPINION you happen to agree with, is a natural thing to do. Please note the capatilized words.

Again:

What's strong one way is weak in another.

What works for me might not work for you.

Always be open to suggestion, there may be a better way.

[flem]

Sayloc,

Since you need interpretation, I am telling Yu Shan that HE is an authority, and much like you, though I didn't specify the route to take (as you did by specifying san shou), that questions can be answered, by the individual in addition to the instructor. That it is IN MY OPIONION a good idea not to be so overwhelmed by a persons history/title that they cannot be questioned or wrong.
BTW, with respect to your post to "everyone else". I believe everyone responding to this thread is either a teacher or time-wise is qualified to teach. I believe them to be quite aware that stances are transitions, and of the one's present, they are all experienced in sparring, san shou, and fighting. What WE are discussing is the various pluses and minuses of a stance derived from two different sources. Yu Shan and 18 Elders seem to believe that because of their mantis history it doesn't need question, I disaggree, so get over it. When I respond to you, and you " Read my posts wrong", let me know, otherwise we're all big boys and can speak for ourselves, don't ya think?

[sayloc]

Flem

It seems we are in agreement. I dont think anyone should go by someone elses bio to make their decision on what works for them in a fighting situation.

Some of the teachers may not have fought san shou or lei tei since they have learned some of the stances in the posts here. So how would they know how they work? (one bar fight in the last two years doesnt help much either).

Some of the teachers may not fight the san shou or even teach the fighting so how do they know how it is going to work.

I am just making a suggestion that may help them on their path.

The only way to perfect fighting and to learn what wrks is to fight.

The white ape forms mainland and HK are great to teach these stances and transitions

[flem]

Sayloc,

By "bio" are you speaking in reference to the poster's bio, or to their MA history? Because if you're talking about the poster's bio, I am going a step further and suggesting that one should not simply take an instructor's advice, no matter how worthy. I think you're saying the same thing.
I agree about the San Shou (but outside the area of competition, though that can be included) and I also believe it MUST involve those outside one's own mind-set or style. Especially in today's society of cross-training. I was just telling someone "after witnessing a kick round house kicking another( and I know the kid, and he had no training what so ever), that when I was a kid there was no kicking-0, but with movies, and MA all over, kicking is common place. Any way, I'm saying that one should definitely spar full contact, and as many typesoof opponents as possible.
Also, just in case your speaking of the "poster's bio", I am fairly certain of the qualifications of those who have posted, beyond the info you can attain here.

[flem]

18 elders,

I just saw your post. Yes mantis is in tight, so can the mainland version, in your mind, have a place-perhaps before/or for closing the distance? Wing chung is a great style but it's footwork doesn't match mantis. As a general all around stance I still think one that is more open is best(more then Pong Lai's). The mainland version is good for training the legs and as an attack or lunge foreward. I can see the value of your's once the gap is closed. Of course this all depends on personal preference. One may just want to stand there and wait.
The funny thing to me is, your body type is so functional in the mainland stance. You don't seem to have as much trouble as others being mobile with it, much like Shang Wu.

[sayloc]

Flem

like I said we are in agreement.

I think just because my master has trained with 20 other masters it makes my stance any better for fighting. I have to do the fighting to find out what works for me. They can give great suggestions on what may work best for me. I still have to do the kung fu.

I am still interested in how many times any of the posters have used this particular stance in fighting full contact. I can step back and look at it all day and give numerous applications on how it may work but unless you are in there with soemone hitting you you will never really know. Kind of like back seat driveing if you know what i mean.

We all have to do the kung fu on our own and not just talk about it.

On that noteitis back to my workout

I may do white ape steals the peach next.

[yu shan]

shang wu

Apologize for assuming it was me, I have been misunderstood here before. I guess it is the way I type You should know I mean well, I come here to learn and share. I totally respect all that post here, some are teachers of mine and some are older KF brothers. This in itself should warrant respect. In my eyes, something this generation coming up LACKS! By golly, I`m trying my best to instill this on my young bucks, but it makes me crazy sometimes.

Hua Lin

Indeed sir, I couldn`t agree with you more!

Flem

Thank you for the vote of confidence. Sometimes I think I have been taught alot of martial treasures... then I think that I have only skimmed the surface. And yes I have questioned material taught to me. Somethings do not work well for me. Like this stance we are talking about, I have changed to better suit me, now I use it alot. But, only use in movement though. This is not a stance I use as stationary. Note, BYTT form. Threw that in to keep Bei happy.