Judo throws vs. Mantis throws

[phantom]

Could somebody tell me what is the general differnce between the throws of judo and those of mantis? I suspect that judo's would be more geared toward an opponent who is wearing an article of clothing on his upper body? Thanks in advance.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I'm sure there are people here that know more about this than I do but as I understand it Judo was basically designed as a sport version of Jiu Jitsu. Due to that fact the throws aren't meant to really injure or cripple.

Mantis throws are designed to drop you in ways that inflict damage.

[sayloc]

Many Judo throws are designed for use with a gi top but there are many that do not require a gi also.

Judo is a very in depth system based only on throwing and grappling. There are over 240 throws and countless holds, joint locks and chokes. The throws are classified into hip, leg, arm and sacrifice (there may be a couple more catragories that I have forgotten).

In Judo you spent the majority of the time standing trying to get the opponent to the ground. It is very effective once you get to the ground also. Even in sport judo choke outs and joints dislocation are legal if the opponent does not submit.

The judo seems to have a much more in depth approach to throwing and grappling than mantis systems. Do a search on this site and you will find the subject brought up but there is not much on replies .

It would be better to compare Chinese shuai jiao (not sure on the spelling) to judo .

There are a couple of two person sets in judo.

Have a good day

[SaMantis]

Interesting info, sayloc!

I studied judo very briefly in college, long enough for an introduction to the art and some basic throws & grappling techs.

Comparing that experience with my mantis studies, I see some similarities. However, as Hua Lin Laoshi points out, mantis throws (like many of its offensive techniques) are designed to inflict maximum damage.

In both judo & mantis, two important tactics are to (a) unbalance/uproot your opponent, then (b) exploit it. Because judo is a sport, exploiting the opponent means putting him onto the ground so that the judge sees your move was effective. Done right, you get the full point and the fight is over. In a combat system, exploiting the opponent's unbalanced position means inflicting damage so he doesn't get up -- the fight is over, and unfortunately sometimes so is the opponent.

I agree, judo goes much more in-depth with throws & grappling than other systems, but then that's its goal. The emphasis on randoori as a critical training tool, so students see how their 1-2-3 techniques work "on the mat," also sets it apart from many CMA systems. And although its techniques are designed to inflict
minimum damage, they can be compared with the techniques of combat-oriented systems. The methods may be similar, but the goals are different.

[Three Harmonies]

Since few seem to be piping up I will offer my two cents worth. I am no expert, but love the grappling arts and sort of focus on those all the time. Every technique I teach ends in some sort of take down and / or lock.
Everything said above is correct. But if I may make a suggestion... throws should be categorized in one of three areas; archs / circles / spirals. Regardless of style these constitute every throw possible. I also caution against classifying throws as being Judo, or Wing Chun, or whatever. EVERY style has takedowns and throws. FACT. The difference comes in with teachers. Do they know the grappling arts, and if they do, do they teach them? I surrounded myself with people who had like minded attitudes when it came to grappling, Hu Xi Lin and Tim Cartmell are both grappling experts on several different levels. They teach these applications regardless of form or skill level.
That being said their are certain throws that are created by a Judo player and used primarily by judo guys, the gi throws and grabs are an example. While you find those throws useful with gis (or Hero skin jackets from Shuai Chiao), they are not as useful to a street situation. So every style has disctinct flavor as to their throwing. Xing Yi for example has almost no reaping throws or anything like that, more like Kao Die, knockdowns. Very hard effective and quick. None of them involve grabbing the shirt or jacket of someone.
Mantis is no different. Analyze your sets, and techniques. Ask your teacher. If he cannot explain what takedowns and throws are in the system, you may want to think about that. Fact is majority of fights end up in the grappling range. You not only need to train throws for offensive purposes, but you also need to know how to prevent getting thrown.
So how are they different? Very little difference. Focus on gi grabs more in Judo. Also Mantis is similar in it's takedowns being less dramatic with shoulder throws and what not, but they are still in there. I teach them to my guys. But overall a throw is a throw. YOu have to have the proper body mechanics, and leverage or the throw will not work. Period! Regardless of style.
I highly suggest "Effortless Combat Throws" by Tim Cartmell. It is required reading to even my Mantis students.
For those interested both Hu Xi Lin and Tim Cartmell are coming to Albuquerque soon for seminars, contact me ASAP for more info. Sorry for the shameless plug!
Jake

[mantis108]

I totally agreed. The analysis on Xingyi takedown as Kao Die (knock down) pretty much nails it. I agreed mantis share same characteristics when it comes to this. I also echoes the point that if you want to sharpen the grappling side of things, you must surround yourselves with like minded people in order to train.

One thing of note is that mantis classically has grappling tech done with clothing (ie sleeve, lapel, pants, etc). It is a street arts after all. But who would want to do that to your nice expensive skill performing costum. (**** those silk PJs) lol

I think one element that needs to be stressed is that breakfalling and rolling is an integral and crucial skill that needs to be polished over and over. Judo can affort to have spectacular throws is because of this. It is very intimidating if this basic yet crucial skill is not mastered.

The other crucial area is drilling. When drilling your mantis combination, make sure there is aliveness and make sure interaction is resistive rather than cooperative.

I also 200% agreed with the fact that there is no such a thing as Judo throw, Karate throw and/or mantis throws. There many be different approach leading into the throw but a throw is throw.

Mantis108

PS Jake, a nice text book pitch btw! I wish more people should own the book.

[sayloc]

Good point about the falling 108.

It doesnt matter what kind of throw, if you are dropped on the pavement and do not have any experience falling there is a good chance you are going to end up with a smashed skull, elbow or hip.

I teach my students it is just as important to take a fall as it is to be able to throw (after all we all fall down in some point in our lives even if we dont fight).

I teach my falls based of of Judo/jujutsu principles.

Does any of the mantis systems have a systemized approach to teaching falls?

I have had some instruction with it in mantis but always go back to the judo/jujutsu techniques.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
I'm sure there are people here that know more about this than I do but as I understand it Judo was basically designed as a sport version of Jiu Jitsu. Due to that fact the throws aren't meant to really injure or cripple.

Mantis throws are designed to drop you in ways that inflict damage.

Judo was designed to be a more effective version of traditional Japanese Jujutsu. Because the techniques of traditional JJ were "too deadly" to be practiced full force, they never were. Jiguro Kano believed that if less "deadly" techniques could be practiced at 100% against reisisting opponents, they would be more effective than the "too deadly" ones that couldn' actually be practiced full force.

The end result was a tournament between the best of the new Judo players and the top traditional JJ practitioners to determine which system would be the official style taught to the Tokyo police. The new Judo system pretty much crushed the older, more traditional JJ and their techniques that were "too deadly to practice because they were designed to maim and kill."

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Three Harmonies
While you find those throws useful with gis (or Hero skin jackets from Shuai Chiao), they are not as useful to a street situation.

Last time I checked, most people on the street were wearing clothes.

Originally posted by Three Harmonies
But overall a throw is a throw.

Most throws come from a series of setups. The difference between someone who can pull of a throw and someone who can't is knowing the various set-ups.

[Three Harmonies]

Trying grabbing t shirt like you would a gi! Dave Pickens had a good story about doing that and ripping the guys shirt, while exposing his back! Not a good idea.
Jake

[Michael Dasargo]

To my knowledge and experience, mantis takedowns, such as White Ape Falls in Hole, Threading Needle Chopping Waist, and Reaping Leg, utilizes demolition steps (Beng Bu) to crash into and displace the opponents weight (massive linear momentum = I). The efficacy of the throw is further enhanced by Tie Kao (tag and lean = V) which further displaces the opponents weight in two directions.

The momentum of these forces combined displaces the opponents weight in various directions thus uprooting the opponent. ( I + V = Y, whereas I represents the destabilization of the opponents root, and V represents a pull and push)

(I) is dependant on the structural integrity of the posture with momentum

(V) = (a) push, + (b) pull whereas

(a) = may be produced by any part of the body
(b) = captures any extremity (including the head)

These principles allow the Mantis Boxer to stay rooted while brutally throwing an opponent down and out.

The Mantis Boxing system was designed for the battlefield, so it is only logical to assume that no takedown composed of single leg or stationary postures, and that TLQ throws are designed to immediately respond to consecutive threats.

Hope this helps,
M.Dasargo

[Pilot]

Judo = Grab and throw.

Mantis = Break things along the way.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Pilot
Judo = Grab and throw.

Mantis = Break things along the way.

That's what the traditional JJ guys thought before they got smoked by Kano's Kodokan Judo guys.

[Oso]

you guys that don't think a judoka can break your **** on the way down need to randori some.

same same

when I teach throws I utilize judo and jujitsu explanations I've learned along the way because I think they offer a little simpler and clearer approach to learning to throw.

[Knifefighter]

Although it does happen occassionally, it's actually extremely hard to "break something on the way down" against someone who is halfway conditioned and has any skill at all.