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Thread: Judo throws vs. Mantis throws

  1. #76
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
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    Alabama
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    Since I’ve had some judo and also currently take mantis, let me make another observation in this love fest of judo vs. mantis. The mantis incorporates very heavy physical training and iron body. When I was taking judo, there was a bigger advantage to those who were fat and heavy. In mantis it helps to be large, but not as much as judo because of the joint locks and tactics to cause the other person to be off balance that are not found in judo. Almost everything is different about the 2 styles including something as simple as grabbing. In judo heavy emphasis is placed on the heavy uniform top to aid in throws. In mantis, you do not grab cloths, but the root of muscles and tendons. A lot of mantis styles wear short sleeve or no sleeve tops to aid in practice. Before you get all bent out of shape, JUDO IS A GREAT MARTIAL ART!!!!! I’m just saying it’s just not the same as mantis.
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  2. #77
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    Boston
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    Originally posted by Pilot
    When I was taking judo, there was a bigger advantage to those who were fat and heavy.
    Yeah, in judo I was told that traditionally, judokas' training diets included massive quantities of beer to develop that fine, burly physique.

    I was also told that the n00bs always bought the beer for everyone and .... heeeyyyyy, wait a minute.
    There is a great streak of violence in every human being. If it is not channeled and understood, it will break out in war or in madness. ~Sam Peckinpah

  3. #78

    Re: .

    Originally posted by BeiTangLang
    Naw man, The context in which he wrote the reply was just that judo guys would be better at what they do because of how much they train at it, not that their systems throws are any better.....
    A system that specializes in and trains something five or six times as much as another system will develop better techniques at it's specialty than the second system.

  4. #79
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    Fort Worth, Texas, USA
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    669
    ok, your right infinintly better..... On with the discussion.
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  5. #80
    Originally posted by -N-
    The chin na in his books seem to show a lot of space between the two people. Is this how it was taught at the seminar?

    thanks,
    N.
    I've never seen any of his books, so I can't be sure. Do you know of any similar pics online?
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  6. #81
    Originally posted by Pilot
    The mantis incorporates very heavy physical training and iron body.

    so does judo, when you compete at higher levels. Two of my coaches compete and national and world levels, and they are all about conditioning. it's the name of the game. Less competitive schools likely do not condition as much - but applies to pretty much any style.


    When I was taking judo, there was a bigger advantage to those who were fat and heavy.


    Depends on how well the little guy understands what he's doing. The two above mentioned coaches are both smaller than me, yet they both manhande me. For guys with lesser experience though, yeah, my size alone gives them he!!.


    In mantis it helps to be large, but not as much as judo because of the joint locks and tactics to cause the other person to be off balance that are not found in judo.

    Judo is all bout off balancing. In some cases, using joint manipulation to do so, but mainly just good knowledge of akzushi. how long did you train?


    Almost everything is different about the 2 styles including something as simple as grabbing. In judo heavy emphasis is placed on the heavy uniform top to aid in throws. In mantis, you do not grab cloths, but the root of muscles and tendons.


    yet again, depends on how you train and with whom. judo does indeed rely on gi grabs, for the fact that the gi is what you grab in competition. However, if you look at guys like olympic medalist mike swain, they also train judo throws with no gi. The majority of guys at my club also train bjj and adapt judo throws to no gi, consequently, we do alot of over and underhooking, as opposed to only gi grabbing.


    Before you get all bent out of shape, JUDO IS A GREAT MARTIAL ART!!!!! I’m just saying it’s just not the same as mantis.

    Nothing to get bent out of shape about - it's only a discussion.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  7. #82
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    SF Bay Area
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    2,111
    Originally posted by SevenStar
    I've never seen any of his books, so I can't be sure. Do you know of any similar pics online?
    Here's a url that kinda shows what I mean. The pics are just some general stuff, not the actual applications though.

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0940...=1#reader-page

    Contrast to this cover pic:

    http://images.amazon.com/images/P/08...CLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

    N.

  8. #83
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Seattle, WA.
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    A lot of people have praised Yang Laoshi here and on other forums, and I am not too sure why. I have been to several of his seminars on Chin Na and other topics, and frankly I am not very impressed. No offense to anyone.
    He has a strong grip, I will give him that. He knows all sorts of variations when it comes to the locks. The problem is his entry and execution. I would venture to say 95% of his Chin Na is useless other than in a seminar. Keep in mind Chin Na is the hardest application to get on someone on the street. That being said, he goes into these digressions of variations where you are switching hands, fumbling around with your opponents arm/hand whatever. ETC. ETC.
    And to answer the question of should there be that much space in between you and your opponent while applying Chin Na. The answer is yes..... if you want to get your head kicked in! Grappling of any sorts is better the closer you get.

    Cheers
    Jake
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    Three Harmonies Chinese Martial Arts Center
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  9. #84
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    SF Bay Area
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    Originally posted by Three Harmonies [...] should there be that much space in between you and your opponent while applying Chin Na. The answer is yes..... if you want to get your head kicked in! Grappling of any sorts is better the closer you get.
    I know what you mean. I'm totally uncomfortable with giving the other person that much space. I'd want to control his center and base at the same time.

    In all fairness, I figured that the book pictures might have been done that way for the sake of clarity.

    N.

  10. #85
    definitely more like the first pic.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  11. #86
    here is one of my favorite pics, for all the mantis players
    KUNG FU USA
    www.eightstepkungfu.com
    Teaching traditional Ba Bu Tang Lang (Eight Step Praying Mantis)
    Jin Gon Tzu Li Gung (Medical) Qigong
    Wu style Taiji Chuan



    Teacher always told his students, "You need to have Wude, patient, tolerance, humble, ..." When he died, his last words to his students was, "Remember that the true meaning of TCMA is fierce, poison, and kill."

  12. #87
    looks like one of several variations of various judo throws. Describe that throw, set up and all.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  13. #88
    sevenstar,
    the throw very well might be in judo as it is a leg lift, which falls under an "rotational" typical type of displacment. However the throw comes from shuai chiao and is called (bung tiao) the bung is the trap and the (tiao) is the leg lift ....for i.e
    your oppnent throws a right punch to the face, you redirect and gou or mantis grab w/ right hand,simutaneuosly punch left to opponents face, when opponents blocks you shift your weight , foot angle and balance which locks thier right elbow against your chest (bung).
    You then step to crossing leg and while keep constant pressure on the elbow twist and lift your right leg (tiao). This causes your opponents head and feet to rotate 180 degrees falling on thier back. It is an extremley wokable throw and had to counter, if they try to counter you just hyperextend the elbow and go into a lock then throw, so either way its very hard to counter even from and experienced martial artist.
    I like throws that lock first, this seems more real to me then alot of judo or aikido throws, although many of them lock first alot of them don't.

    here is another angle for you too see
    KUNG FU USA
    www.eightstepkungfu.com
    Teaching traditional Ba Bu Tang Lang (Eight Step Praying Mantis)
    Jin Gon Tzu Li Gung (Medical) Qigong
    Wu style Taiji Chuan



    Teacher always told his students, "You need to have Wude, patient, tolerance, humble, ..." When he died, his last words to his students was, "Remember that the true meaning of TCMA is fierce, poison, and kill."

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