Judo throws vs. Mantis throws

[sayloc]

I agree, you dont "break things on the way down". It is the abrupt stop at the end that breaks things.

Oso would probably agree that even a basic hip throw can injure a person who is conditioned but does not know proper falling techniques.

Here is a test for every one. Stand on your driveway then jump up as far as you can try to level off at about 3 feet or so and fall flat on your back. Lets see what happens.

Have a good day.

[shirkers1]

Once again knifefighter and his vast helpful info!!! Hmm maybe this thread will get shut down just like all of mine because of him?

Since you are the expert, why don't you tell us exactly how tactically and technically JUDO throws are different from MANTIS throws? Since that is what the thread is asking. I mean for you to chime in and give a knowledgeable response you would have to have a background in both somewhat right? hmmm what mantis training do you have again?


Like jake said there is only so many ways to do a tactic right no matter what the style is. I’ve watched mr cartmell’s vids and he explains the arch/ circle/spirals very well and it makes sense. Just like straight line or hookline attacks when striking.

Mantis tends to use throws that tie the opponent up so he lands in an awkward position causing more damage on impact. Or breaks that lead to throws if the opponent gives in to the momentum. The breaks happen before the throw if the opponent doesn't give in to the momentum. The mantis throws are tricky like I said because the opponent is tied up so he can't break his fall easily. With the constant hooking of the legs and sweeps mantis utilizes upper and lower body sticking at the same time and a lot of the throws involve striking to deliver the throw instead of a grapple alone.

[Oso]

guess i need to clarify:

i got the feeling that people think judo is not capable of doing damage to someone with it's throws.

Judo is just as capable as mantis is of doing damage all else being equal

if the person is conditoined to take a fall...less damage.

if the person is skilled at grappling...the will not be as likely to get damaged from locking/breaking attempts.

no one style corners the market on anything.

[-N-]

Originally posted by shirkers1
The mantis throws are tricky like I said because the opponent is tied up so he can't break his fall easily. With the constant hooking of the legs and sweeps mantis utilizes upper and lower body sticking at the same time...

Dip Jang/Jau can be done this way. Elbow striking the head while opponent's arms are trapped and you hyperextend his elbow and break his foundation for the takedown. So there is an attempt at elbow break/tear with the takedown, and it is difficult to breakfall.

One of my students had 30+ years experience in japanese martial arts. ~20 in Japan after he moved there so he could learn the real deal. His main teacher was hard core old school Aiki-Jitsu. This was before Jitsu became Do. Anyway, my friend found our Mantis way of setting up and executing Dip Jang to be more vicious and effective than the various ones he had done in Japan. And he was the type that had no problem going from school to school asking to be "taught a lesson".

Waist chop in 7 star stance can tear the ACL if the person resists. It's happened in class before.

N.

[-N-]

Originally posted by Oso
if the person is skilled at grappling...the will not be as likely to get damaged from locking/breaking attempts.

no one style corners the market on anything.

Yep!

N.

[shirkers1]

OSO I don't think anyone is saying one is better than the other, accept for knifefighters responses about jj and judo. Or that one is the end all be all. We all, well most of us know that. The question at hand is how judo throws differ from mantis. So that is what I based my response on.

[Three Harmonies]

Shirkers
Save your breath with Knifefighter. He just wants to argue!
Jake

[shirkers1]

Thanks jake.

I was just hoping to once get a technical response regarding mantis from him since he likes to post on mantis so much.

[Oso]

ok...my .02 on the 'difference' is that there is none.

now, I'll bow to both KF and Sevenstar (and others) on this since my judo is minimal (first 8 throws)

but the primary thing in judo is to affect their kazushi (balance)

judo does this mainly with off balances from pushing/pulling or manipulation of the center with positioning changes.

mantis does this too but employs striking as well to accomplish the same thing.

japanese jujitsu also employs atemi (sp?) or striking to do the same thing.

I don't really know any bjj so I can't offer anything there.

so, no difference other than stylistic ones.

my opinion is that because judo's forte' is throwing...they have spent more time developing their methodology on throwing and for me it makes a lot of sense.

[mantis108]

I have to agree with Oso.

Judo approaches the throw with Kazushi, which is to unbalance with some kind of a handle mostly the Gi (clothing). This feature also makes it more suitable for sport oriented events because in theory it would cost minimal damage to your opponent but would give them a good idea that you have better skill than the receiving end. The throw is the main focus here.

Mantis incorporates striking and kicking while approaching the throw. The throw is in a sense the backup here. But this does not limit mantis only to striking oriented only. BTW Mantis seldom relies on clinching but rather trapping. By the same token, there is no real restriction for Judo to punch and kick before doing the throw. Mostly it is a preference and choice of the "style".

MMA, wrestling, Sambo, and to a certian degree BJJ uses clinching extensively for the takedown. Pure classical mantis in my most humle opinion is very weak in the clinching aspect. This is not to say that there is no way for Mantis to counter the clinch. In fact, classical mantis has moves to deal with the clinch within Zhan (adhere) Nian (stick) Bang (help) Tie (paste). Only though these skills are getting less and less training focus. We miss out on clinching quite often.

The clinch is quite empowering regardless if there is clothing or not. That's why it is ideal for all sorts of sport events or otherwise. It is a great skill to have.

I think -N- has a good point but I think we need to be sensitive to other non mantis MAists who don't necessary grasp our terminology. So it would be great if we can spent a little more time in typing out the actual moves with a bit more detail. I think it will save a lot of grieves and it may also benefit novice level mantis students as well.

Mantis108

[-N-]

Originally posted by mantis108
I think we need to be sensitive to other non mantis MAists who don't necessary grasp our terminology.

Yep. Sorry for rushing... had a moment in between reinstalling software and running off to a meeting.

N.

[Oso]

just so people don't start to think I hate mantis...one of the things I do that bugged (hehe) the jujitsu guys I trained with is that on the collar and elbow grab I didn't grab w/ my fingers that much at all and employed the elbow of my collar hand against their chest. This allowed me to 'listen' to their centerline a bit better, imo. I could also immediately post off of them and 'ride' their movement. this concept I attribute to my mantis.

but then we had that catch wrestler come in and completely make me feel like I was back in 8th grade and stepping on the mat for the first time.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by phantom
Could somebody tell me what is the general differnce between the throws of judo and those of mantis? I suspect that judo's would be more geared toward an opponent who is wearing an article of clothing on his upper body? Thanks in advance.

I haven't read any replies yet, so this may have been said, but not all judo throws require clothing,and many of those that do can be modified - you use under and overhooks as opposed to grabbing clothes. For example, with tai otoshi, instead of pulling sleeve and lapel, you grab an arm and put your other forearm in the fold of his arm (reverse side of elbow) to complete the throw. For a fireman's carry, you overhook his shoulder or grab the back of the tricep, etc.

if mantis uses the same types of throws seen in shuai chiao (I know throwing in general is referred to as shuai chiao, but I dunno if you guys use the same throws found in the art of shuai chiao...), then the main difference is hip loading. judo relies on hip loading for some of it's throws whereas SC does not.

Also, judo relies on kazushi - offbalancing - to get the throw. Shuai chiao does not. They tend to force the offbalance either by crashing into someone, or setting it up with strikes.

[Oso]

[-N-]

In light of SevenStar's post, one way to look at Mantis preference is strike, stick, joint lock, then take out their base.

N.