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Thread: Judo throws vs. Mantis throws

  1. #31
    Originally posted by sayloc

    Judo is a very in depth system based only on throwing and grappling. There are over 240 throws and countless holds, joint locks and chokes. The throws are classified into hip, leg, arm and sacrifice (there may be a couple more catragories that I have forgotten).
    atemi waza is striking. strikes are taught in judo, but generally not untill you reach black belt and are not the main focus of the style.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

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  2. #32
    Originally posted by SaMantis

    Comparing that experience with my mantis studies, I see some similarities. However, as Hua Lin Laoshi points out, mantis throws (like many of its offensive techniques) are designed to inflict maximum damage.

    In both judo & mantis, two important tactics are to (a) unbalance/uproot your opponent, then (b) exploit it. Because judo is a sport, exploiting the opponent means putting him onto the ground so that the judge sees your move was effective. Done right, you get the full point and the fight is over. In a combat system, exploiting the opponent's unbalanced position means inflicting damage so he doesn't get up -- the fight is over, and unfortunately sometimes so is the opponent.


    Now think about that for a second.... what constitutes an ippon (full point)?

    them being thrown squarely on their back. When the avg person is thrown down, their head will impact the ground, as they don't know how to fall. judo throws - the actual throw - does no less damage than styles from any other style. Some of them - o soto makikomi, for example, are known for injuring people. If I do a shoulder throw and stop my rotation half way through the throw, you will land on your head instead of your back. When throwing tai otoshi, if you block high on the knee, you can tear ligaments in their knee with the throw. the list goes on.



    And although its techniques are designed to inflict
    minimum damage, they can be compared with the techniques of combat-oriented systems. The methods may be similar, but the goals are different.
    I don't think the goal is really that different. the 'ju' in judo translates to 'gentle', but the meaning is referring to the amount of effort put into the throw. Judo's main principle is maximum efficiency with minimum effort. by yielding to you (being gentle) and directiong your energy where I want it, I am able to throw you.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  3. #33
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    tai otoshi

    Originally posted by SevenStar
    When throwing tai otoshi, if you block high on the knee, you can tear ligaments in their knee with the throw.
    Sounds good

    A mantis way of doing something similar to Tai Otoshi could go like this:

    * A attacks B with flying knee attack, right grab, left punch all at same time.
    * B uses left to defend the left punch.
    * A uses left to stick and grab B's left.
    * A extends B's left, rotating B's elbow upward and wrapping B's right elbow around the extended arm to apply pressure from above the elbow joint toward the ground. A can use his right elbow to hit across B's face during this.
    * A's right leg comes down from the knee attack and kicks down and across B's right knee from left to right, using the back of the leg.

    From what I can tell, it looks like Tai Otoshi has 180 degree turn with upper body force in one direction and a leg block/kick to keep the opponent's lower body from compensating. You can spiral him into the ground with the turn. Upper body force can be applied with sleeve and lapel grip.

    The Mantis sequence(similar to one from Siu Ga Sik) uses less turning with a tighter spiral.

    The upper body force is applied through a cross hand tie-up which tears the elbow joint. The trapped hands make breakfall awkward.

    The leg motion is 90 degrees instead of 180 degress to deliberately attack the knee in its weakest direction.

    The elbow break motion is applied straight down with body sinking after just enough turn to get the opponent's body barely overcenter.

    This compresses the opponent downward and makes it difficult for the opponent to unweight his right leg. The leg kick motion then tears the opponent's knee ligaments while taking out his base.


    N.

  4. #34

    Re: tai otoshi

    Originally posted by -N-
    The Mantis sequence(similar to one from Siu Ga Sik) uses less turning with a tighter spiral.
    A training buddy of mine does his that way.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  5. #35
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    Cool, thanks for the info SevenStar.

    N.

  6. #36
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    Seven Star and -N-, good information from both sides. Thank you.

    If I do a shoulder throw and stop my rotation half way through the throw, you will land on your head instead of your back. When throwing tai otoshi, if you block high on the knee, you can tear ligaments in their knee with the throw. the list goes on.
    As a beginner in judo, of course the focus was more on getting us to throw & be thrown without killing each other. However what I see in the examples above is that judoka can "dial up" the effect of the throw if they want.

    Can mantis throws be "dialed down" to lessen injury? Has anyone done this (outside of half-speed training drills)? Tx.
    There is a great streak of violence in every human being. If it is not channeled and understood, it will break out in war or in madness. ~Sam Peckinpah

  7. #37
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    Any technique should be versatile enough to train at any level or speed. The damage comes from the intent (Yi). If I intend to block high on my opponents leg, thus damaging the knee more... then it is damaged.
    Accidents do happen (we train tons of eye rakes and gouges, and I accidentally slipped my middle finger into my brothers eye, complete nail deep!!!) so one must be careful, but everything in ones arsenal should be easily trainable, if not then throw it out because it is garbage if you cannot train it.

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  8. #38
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    Originally posted by SaMantis
    Can mantis throws be "dialed down" to lessen injury? Has anyone done this (outside of half-speed training drills)? Tx.
    I can't speak from any expertise, but in sparring I've seen all of our more experienced mantis players throw each other.

    And amazingly enough, they are all still alive!

  9. #39
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    Originally posted by SaMantis
    Can mantis throws be "dialed down" to lessen injury? Has anyone done this (outside of half-speed training drills)?
    Our branch of Mantis focuses on explosiveness, small motions, sensitivity, and short force. In the example I gave, we train the motions at 3/4 speed and work up to full speed.

    For the lock and throw portion, we stop just short of taking the person to the asphalt. We use our sensitivity to detect when the other person's body and joints are fully locked and the slightest additional pressure would take him straight down. At that point we ease off the pressure to avoid tearing ligaments. If the person does begin to fall, we'll catch him to keep him from landing on the side of his head. (The parietal and temporal bones are thin and the skull is prone to fracture at that location.)

    Sometimes the students get "cocky" and try to counter or sucker punch the teacher. I don't mind really, because it shows that they are thinking, and it's usually good for laughs all around. Last year though, one person tried to pull a surprise counter when I stopped short of dumping him on the ground with this very sequence.

    I could feel it coming, so I locked him back up and took out his base just enough for him to see that his counter would not work. Unfortunately, this caught him by surprise because we had been going full speed. The result was that he stumbled, and even though I caught him before he hit the ground, he tore his knee slightly, and has been wearing a brace since ;(

    N.

  10. #40
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    Over the years I have taken several styles including Judo. I think Judo is a very good Martial. There is a Huge difference between the styles of Mantis and Judo. There are a lot of differences between throws. On the surface they may seem simular because the body has only so many movements that it can do. Like a straight punch, All styles make a fist and punch (don't get techinical with arches, lines, circles,etc this is just an example ). Judo mainly takes the energy of another and deflects and/or uses that energy against you. Judo also has some painful pins once on the ground. Mantis like Judo involves basics like balance, having a firm foundation, and leverage. But unlike Judo, Mantis throws are more aggressive and not as passive. They do not wait for an energy to redirect. A lot of Mantis throws involve driving into your attacker. And, as it was very well pointed out in a previous post, you cause the attacker to land in a way to cause maxium damage. A mantis throw most always involves damaging something right before the throw is made. It involves a "finishing blow" also if time permits. Mantis usually does not grapple with one person on the ground. If the attacker is on the ground, no since you getting down there with them I can do damage standing up. Plus the thugs always have a friend with them. You don't want to be caught rolling around on the ground (No offense).
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  11. #41

    Re: ?

    Originally posted by shirkers1
    Since you are the expert, why don't you tell us exactly how tactically and technically JUDO throws are different from MANTIS throws?
    I'm not commenting on Mantis throws, per se. I am talking about any techniques that people claim cause extreme damage to the opponent. Any technique that theoretically does this cannot be practiced full force against a resisting opponent. Since these throws cannot be practiced in a realistic manner, they usually cannot be used effectively against a resisting opponent.

  12. #42
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    When Mantis encounters resistance, it switches to another technique to take advantage of the other person's rigidity.

    Not to say that others don't do the same. I've seen good BJJ people do so with their methods too.

    N.

  13. #43
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    Seems to me the question has been answered but I would like to put in my two cents worth. Eco, Eco. From what I learned in my short time doing judo. They wait for the opponent to go off balance and then they capitalize on it. Mantis forces the opponent off balance and knocks them down. The few throws that I have learned in mantis are more like slams, just grab the punk and slam his a$$ into the ground. I find more tripping and leverage manipulation knocking down the opponent with a strike trip combo. I think one other difference that has been mentioned sort of is that mantis intention is not to throw but it is a good back up plan and being an opportunist the mantis will do what ever it takes.

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  14. #44
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    Re: Re: ?

    Originally posted by Knifefighter
    I'm not commenting on Mantis throws, per se. I am talking about any techniques that people claim cause extreme damage to the opponent. Any technique that theoretically does this cannot be practiced full force against a resisting opponent. Since these throws cannot be practiced in a realistic manner, they usually cannot be used effectively against a resisting opponent.
    Knifefighter makes a good point, but we don't have any techniques like that (at least I haven't learned any yet). All of our throws and chin na we practice, against resisting opponents--you just stop short of breaking or dumping them on the ground at a bad angle.

    It's just like submissions in BJJ. I'm sure nearly all quality BJJ blue belts could turn one of their submissions into something much worse without having to practice it all the time. The difference between somebody tapping out to a heel hook and blowing their knee out with a heel hook is just a matter of force. Same thing with our chin na. The difference between an armbar for control or submission and an armbar for damage is the amount of force you put into it.

  15. #45
    Originally posted by Pilot
    Mantis throws are more aggressive and not as passive. They do not wait for an energy to redirect. A lot of Mantis throws involve driving into your attacker.


    judo does this as well. traditionally taught, you wait for an opening. In aggressive, competition judo, you drive into your opponent, use your body to pull him in a circle, etc. judo is really nowhere near as passive as people seem to think. Heck, in competition, you are penalized if you don't attack at least once every 10 seconds.


    Mantis usually does not grapple with one person on the ground. If the attacker is on the ground, no since you getting down there with them I can do damage standing up. Plus the thugs always have a friend with them. You don't want to be caught rolling around on the ground (No offense).

    but you can't always help it. Trust me, anyone can be taken down. Anyone can slip in a puddle, etc. It's not about rolling on the ground, it's about knowing what to do if you do have to go there.

    Last edited by SevenStar; 01-31-2005 at 02:17 PM.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

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