Judo throws vs. Mantis throws

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

No, actually mantis throws are as good as judo throws.

For a mantis practitioner to be as good with them as the judo practitioner he would have to train similarly to the judo player.

I don't buy the 'you have to practice it all day every day to make it work' type of argument.

Practicing for an hour a day 5 days a week make the player good, not the style.

[BeiTangLang]

Thats what I said!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi

For a mantis practitioner to be as good with them as the judo practitioner he would have to train similarly to the judo player.

I think that's the point he was trying to make.

I don't buy the 'you have to practice it all day every day to make it work' type of argument.

Practicing for an hour a day 5 days a week make the player good, not the style.


not necessarily to make it work, but to make it work against a good exponent of the style in question. That's pretty common sense. If in a two hour class, you spend 15 mins warming up, 30 mins on technique drills, 30 mins on throwing and 15 mins on conditoning, will you be more proficient at throwing than the guy who in a two hour class spends 1.5 hours of it throwing?

Heck, try it. When I was in CMA, we grappled somewhat, but not regularly. A friend from class and I got together, bought a copy of the fighter's notebook and would train grappling for 2 hours every saturday. When we grappled in class, we killed everyone, merely because we were putting in more time.

BTW, nice sig, BTL - that's one of my favorite moments on king of the hill!

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

BTL
I'm just saying there's no better or worse when talking styles (remove players from equation). You can take a lousy style and train it all day long and the style will not get any better. So I would disagree with wiz cool c that to make the mantis throws as good as judo throws you need to train them more.

SevenStar
But do you see where that argument leads? It implies that more is always better and that just isn't true.

Is the guy who trains 2 hrs a day better than the guy who trains 1 hr a day? How about the guy that trains 3 hrs a day?

To be better than a guy who trains 6 hrs a day do I have to train 8 hrs a day?

I just get tired of the claims that you have to spend almost all your free time training in order to be any good. How many hours a day do most of the older Masters train? Or are they just all talk?

[BeiTangLang]

Naw man, The context in which he wrote the reply was just that judo guys would be better at what they do because of how much they train at it, not that their systems throws are any better.....

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
SevenStar
But do you see where that argument leads? It implies that more is always better and that just isn't true.

Is the guy who trains 2 hrs a day better than the guy who trains 1 hr a day? How about the guy that trains 3 hrs a day?

To be better than a guy who trains 6 hrs a day do I have to train 8 hrs a day?

I just get tired of the claims that you have to spend almost all your free time training in order to be any good. How many hours a day do most of the older Masters train? Or are they just all talk?

it's an issue of specificity. your example above is too vague. if you have a guy that trains two hours, and a guy that trains one, it's possible that the guy who trains one may be better at overall fighting. No argument there. but when you get more specific - the guy with more fucsed training is going to be better in his area of focus than the guy who is less specific. MMA guys are great, but the avg. MMA guy would bet ktfo by a boxer in a boxing match. Why? because they don't train striking to the extent that the boxer does.

As far as older masters, the same applies, actually. Take dr yang jwing ming. He's awesome with pressure points and his chin na is great - those are his areas of specificity. Now, if he were to enter a shuai chiao match with chang tung sheng, he would get destroyed. both are masters, BUT both are masters AT WHAT THEY DO. it's like having a major in college. two people may have gone to college and have the same general knowledge, but they will know more than the other in the area of their major.

Also, in regards to masters, the key here is experience. at one point in time, they have literally been there and done that. They have trained hard, they have tested themselves, etc. they use that to their advantage. Even though they are now at a deficit in the speed and strength department, they should, ideally, be able to rely on their experience to carry them. To a certain extent, this is plausible.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

BTL
Guess I just read it differently. That's how it sounded to me (actually looked it over a few times before posting).

SevenStar
Specificity included. My example assumes both are training throws (per the topic). Sorry, still disagree. That would mean for me to beat you at grappling all I have to do is find out how much time you spend on grappling training and then just train it 1 hour a day more. Doesn't work that way. If it did then all you have to do is wait for a big boxing event, find out which fighter trains more each day, bet on that fighter and collect when it's over.

[mantis108]

As far as older masters, the same applies, actually. Take dr yang jwing ming. He's awesome with pressure points and his chin na is great - those are his areas of specificity. Now, if he were to enter a shuai chiao match with chang tung sheng, he would get destroyed. both are masters, BUT both are masters AT WHAT THEY DO. it's like having a major in college. two people may have gone to college and have the same general knowledge, but they will know more than the other in the area of their major.

This is very interesting. I am not questioning you on this statement [in fact I am quite in agreement with you]. So if I am hearing you right, under the shuai chiao rules Yang would lose and under the Chin Na rules (if there is such a thing) the victor might be Yang? What if there is not rules? where or who would you put your money on (just curious)? Here's where I find problematic. What exactly is Chin Na and how do we measure the effectiveness of YJM's Chin Na? We could somewhat see the performance of Chang tung Sheng in competitve record but we have no way of seeing YJM's Chin Na in action except from books an videos.

Again I am not questioning you, I am just wondering out loud. Just starting to find the dynamics of this thread turned a notch more interesting.

Warm regards

Mantis108

PS I am partial to Shuai Chiao in this case.

[SevenStar]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. When boxer's train for a fight, they train to exploit the weaknesses of the other fighter. If I know you've got a hard cross but suck on the inside, I'm going to tailor my game to getting inside of you. Consequently, what we've been saying above doesn't necessarily apply there. Also, boxers are training the same skill sets. Within those skill sets, you have people that are better at certain things, due to training and attributes. For example, lewis has a decent jab, but he's weak on the inside. Tyson on the other hand, is a monster on the inside. One is better than the other at their preferred range.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by mantis108
This is very interesting. I am not questioning you on this statement [in fact I am quite in agreement with you]. So if I am hearing you right, under the shuai chiao rules Yang would lose and under the Chin Na rules (if there is such a thing) the victor might be Yang? What if there is not rules? where or who would you put your money on (just curious)? Here's where I find problematic. What exactly is Chin Na and how do we measure the effectiveness of YJM's Chin Na? We could somewhat see the performance of Chang tung Sheng in competitve record but we have no way of seeing YJM's Chin Na in action except from books an videos.

Looking at the broader picture of a no rules fight, I really don't think that it would apply. It would come more down to strategy and tactics - can CTS make YJM fight his fight, or vice versa. They are both skilled in their areas of expertise, but they have to get to that range first. One would think that the more well rounded person would fare the best, but the less rounded one may be excellent at exploiting holes and getting to his intended range...

I've seen YJM in action in person before, but that really can't adequately quantify his skill level.


Again I am not questioning you, I am just wondering out loud. Just starting to find the dynamics of this thread turned a notch more interesting.

that is what discussion is all about. if we keep wondering, we'll eventually get somewhere

[mantis108]

I've seen YJM in action in person before, but that really can't adequately quantify his skill level.

Now, I can't imagine you are such a diplomat. lol...

So, pray tell. Do quantify. What is your opinion albeit "inadequate" as you termed in. I am not trying to stir up trouble. I am just interested in honest "estimates" (I know it's a bit oxymoron). It is interesting because you have some knowledge of Shuai Chiao and have seen YJM in action so... I am very much curious about how he conducts his seminars or class. Are they resistive in nature as SC would be? Most importantly to what the end game in his Chin Na?

Please don't take the 5th on these ones. [joke]

Warm regards

Mantis108

[SevenStar]

He's great. I didn't see him spar, so I can't attest to his fighting ability, but he's quick, and his strieks are VERY precise. He demoed something on one of my training buddies....touched his shoulder - and his whole arm went numb from the shoulder down. I'm not sure exactly what he did, other than touch his arm. This was a seminar, not a class, so it wasn't resistive - I dunno if his classes are or not. He ran us through part of his chin na system, showing us how to apply the locks, then we'd apply them on our partner.

[-N-]

Originally posted by SevenStar
He demoed something on one of my training buddies....touched his shoulder - and his whole arm went numb from the shoulder down. I'm not sure exactly what he did, other than touch his arm.

Sounds like brachial plexus. Cool.

N.

[mantis108]

Thanks for sharing the experience. I hear you crystal clear. Thank you for that.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[-N-]

Originally posted by SevenStar
He ran us through part of his chin na system, showing us how to apply the locks, then we'd apply them on our partner.

The chin na in his books seem to show a lot of space between the two people. Is this how it was taught at the seminar?

thanks,
N.