Why not have an open mind about real fighting?

[AndrewS]

Victor,

feel free.

Andrew

[old jong]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Michel, it's good to know the competition is doing
PR

Hey Phil!
I know exactly what the "competition" is doing. I guess everybody else know also!...

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by old jong
Hey Phil!
I know exactly what the "competition" is doing. I guess everybody else know also!...

Had you ever heard of people JHR people fighting with razor blades between their finger or Capoeristas using blades between their toes, or people that can catch your punch and kiss your fist and throw it back into your face EFFECTIVELY, people who can block puinches with their elbows, head, or..... I can go on and on. I don't think there is a person on this planet that can know every thing about every martial art or fighting system. I'm a perpetual (sp)? student of the fighting arts and would never claim to have all the answers. So in my case I'd like to know what's out there so that I can at least be prepared. Since you know "exactly" what the competiton is doing you're in a different league than I am
PR

[old jong]

Phil!
No need to get angry!...
There is life outside of this forum and I know about some things.I was talking about the MMA noise mainly.

But did you know that some skin heads train their killing instinct by taking living birds eyes out of their sockets with their fingers?...

Peace!


BTW,blocking with the elbows is an old dirty trick but it works wonder! (I know!)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Here's a post by Phil Redmond from another thread - because it really should be on this thread as well...


"Almost all fights (that involve kicks), will look similar to kick boxing. Also, a WC practitioner should be effective with or without gloves. You simply apply WC principles to the fight. You don't have to always have to grab or finger strike. I can still cover gates and counter punch with gloves on. I think many WC people say that to excuse the fact that many don't train for realism."

This was a response to someone saying that even using thin fingerless gloves, when sparring, is a problem for Wing Chun people.

It shouldn't be a problem.

And it isn't.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by old jong
Phil!
No need to get angry!...
There is life outside of this forum and I know about some things.I was talking about the MMA noise mainly.

But did you know that some skin heads train their killing instinct by taking living birds eyes out of their sockets with their fingers?...

Peace!


BTW,blocking with the elbows is an old dirty trick but it works wonder! (I know!)

WHO ME ANGRY??? jk .....lolol
Phil

[old jong]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
WHO ME ANGRY??? jk .....lolol
Phil

O.K.!.....A little grumpy insread?....

[Vajramusti]

Phil sez:

I'm a perpetual (sp)? student of the fighting arts and would never claim to have all the answers.
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Phil- I share those curiosities. There are all sorts of fairly vile tricks in fighting the world over.

BUT IMO it does not mean that we can or should simulate
"sparring" against each and every one of the different possibilities. Too many of them.. The swinging big bar punches can be a piece of cake for a good boxer- who in turn can be knifed.

The real question is what is the most versatile self defense system which when well understood allows an individual to
deal with a wide spectrum of possibilities. Thats where it is wing chun for me. I dont begrudge other's choices. neither in kung fu nor in other areas of life am I an evangelical.

BTW- street gangs I knew in Calcutta did many of those things with razor blades. Sharpened coins. little sharpened hand held objects were/ are known in various parts of South and South east Asia. Vestiges of thugee traditions have not all disappeared.

Our family butcher cut meat with his hands against a sharp
knife held between the big and the next toe. He and his relatives in urban riots could fight with knives on their feet. Ditto in parts of Indonesia and other places. My butcher could kick someone in the groin fast with a small knife well held between his toes.

The kubotan is not new. Little hand weapons were/are known in many parts of the world.

Many can tell many other frightening possibilities.

Depending onwhere when and with whom one travels-
lots of nasty things in the world. Not an issue of perfection
but one of the highest probability for the longest time- in self defense.

The sword made some arts decline... then the gun put an end to many martial arts. Complete self defense is an illusion.

Developing an alert and aware individual- who is not a walking case of paranoia- witha decent auto reflex system which gets better over time-with guts and ability to perform under pressure and quick read situations and individuals- and knowing when to fight and when not to-
and also doing something to tame fear in oneself and in the community can be a constructive part of martial development in addition to fighting skills. I am not makinga brief against the latter.

[SAAMAG]

Well the gun put an end to all unarmed martial arts. That is if you're going to pit the effectiveness of a punch to the effectiveness of a bullet.

But these things that we suggest aren't to begrudge those that practice wing chun alone, but to help in betterment of the person's fighting ability as a whole...without regard to style. Most of what is being said is simply to train differently than those do in wing chun right now...not to abandon it altogether.

Training in a little groundwork and a little of this or that takes little effort, it's similar to having a college major, and then having minor(s) as well. Think of it that way. It's not as if they're saying that wing chun plain and simple sucks...they may just be facing facts that there is little to say otherwise.

We can all benefit from other people's experience...especially if their area of expertise is in an area we don't dwell in.

I for one just in case...do carry a gun. It's a glock19c. Easy to aim - easy to shoot...numerous times in a row. Im pretty sure that if there is something happening that my unarmed martial arts couldnt handle...that I would be pulling out ol' faithful.

[Vajramusti]

"I for one just in case...do carry a gun."
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You and i are basically different. I have never carried one and dont currently plan to. And I have lived in dangerous places and encountered dangerous individuals.

The best weapon is the alert brain. The body and its reflexes
are just another set of tools to be used.

Threats to personal safety are somewhat exaggerated IMO-
of course depending on country and time.

In the US I fear the car more than I fear the gun. Just look at the breakdowns on causes of death in additon to the
health disasters. During the Vietnam war more people in the US were killed on the highway than the US deaths in Vietnam.

[SAAMAG]

Well I didn't say that I was going to shoot everyone that gave me shyt nor that I would even ever have to use it, but since we're students of war arts...and me being ex military under the air force special operations command, I find that being a true student of the war arts includes weapons (modern weapons) as well as unarmed combat.

I have it at home as a safeguard...not on my person day to day anymore.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by Vankuen
Well I didn't say that I was going to shoot everyone that gave me shyt nor that I would even ever have to use it, but since we're students of war arts...and me being ex military under the air force special operations command, I find that being a true student of the war arts includes weapons (modern weapons) as well as unarmed combat.

I have it at home as a safeguard...not on my person day to day anymore.

In Michigan anyone that doesn't have a felony conviction can get a CCW (Carry Concealed Weapon) permit. Road rage in Detroit can be scary at times.
PR

[OdderMensch]

Originally posted by Vankuen
To justify that statement, simply look at the most common wing chun techniques typically used in whatever sparring you may happen to see (as it happens very little in most schools) in addition to the chi sau. Aside from the elbows, and the biu sau, what other biu tze techniques do you think are absolutely necessary in wing chun fighting that aren't already present in the previous two forms?

the Chum sun motion. (sinking body near the end of the form.)

and aside from the elbows! i love elbows! also of great need in a fight (so far as i can see) is the long bridge energies in bui jee. the oi got kuen (possiblely implied in reverse in chum kui) and the lau sau motions.

Like I said, it is my belief that, you need thye whole systwem to fight effecively. a lot of the other stuff that gets thrown togther to "fill the holes" in wing chun are not neede with the proper understanding, and practice of the entire system.

[SAAMAG]

You can still learn long bridge from any motion wherein your arm is further out....remember these are just motions done in the air! Lan sau is learned even before biu jee in the sil lim tao form...and everything else is pretty standard stuff. But like I said...whatever works for you is what works for you.

But nothing in biu gee, can help you in the guard or on the ground. So filling in the gaps is still necessary even with the form...just as experience fighting other people that aren't using wing chun. That in my opinion is paramount. You will see what works and what doesn't when you're fighting someone who doesn't move the way you are used to.

[Vajramusti]

"But nothing in biu gee, can help you in the guard or on the ground."
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Wrong!