Wing Chun on the ground

[Sihing73]

Hi Phil,

As already mentioned on a previous thread, I think I pointed out that the pole came from outside of the Wing Chun System. I think that it is necessary for our art to continously evolve to meet the needs and threats we may face today. There is nothing wrong, IMHO, with integrating things from outside of the system provided that they are used to enhance and build upon the foundation which has already been laid. I am sure that an examination of the training methods of any art/sport and even educational institution will show changes over time. If not then that entity is most likely on the way to extinction.

Peace,

Dave

[Vajramusti]

Andrew S's initial post on this thread was a very constructive start.

But the discussions has gone off in different directions.

Some things forgotten in the noise.

Lots of systems have punches. But an experienced wing chun person's punches are practiced differently.

Lots of systems have "saus" but wing chun open hand techniques also have their own details.

Same for some of the points touched on in Andew S's post
and occasionally referred to elsewhere.
Shrimping, bridging, push-pull alternatives, moving yourself
, relaxing and exploding etc... can be done from different grappling perspectives
or from well practiced wing chun perspectives. The difference again is in the details... the nature of the engine, the gears, the wheels. And the devil is always in the details.

And cant depend ona specific technique because the other fella's position etc has to be taken into account.

The wing chun person need not change his engine-there isnt time in a real crisis.

joy

[t_niehoff]

Vankuen wrote:

Why no one on here can just friggin admit that wing chun simply does not have any ground game. Period. It's like the people here are almost afraid...as if they're going to turn to dust the minute they say : "no...wing chun does not have any training in "this" area of fighting."

**Well, that's what I've been saying -- WCK doesn't have groundfighting, it doesn't have the tools (techniques, strategies, etc.) to successfully work in that situation. Sure some WCK concepts will overlap with those of a good groundfighter, and some "techniques" will overlap, but the stuff you need to be successful on the ground, the meat and potatoes, just isn't in the WCK method.

**Now it's easy for folks to say that WCK does have groundfighting, but historically it was never taught, no one in WCK even talked about it until *after* the Cheung-Boztepe incident (when suddenly it appeard in both of those camps), and never became a big deal until after the Gracie/BJJ popularity. Moreover, all those folks that claim WCK does have groundfighting are theoreticians -- they make that claim from theory, from conjecture, or from hearsay. None of them make it from personal experience, from having successfully fought a skilled groundfighter; none of them are willing to step up and mix it up with a skilled groundfighter to demonstrate their ability. It's all theoretical BS.

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Originally posted by old jong : Wing Chun is a pugilistic art that works best at very close range.

Knifefighter responded:

Well, so far, based on the evidence (all the videos that have been posted showing WC being used) and all the analyses of the majority of the forum posters ("just kickboxing"; "sloppy"; "no WC skills shown"; "very low level"), it doesn't seem to work very well there either.

**Once again, old jong posts theory. You can almost always spot theory when it's a general statement (like "WCK is . . ." ). I'm not saying his theory is wrong, but that it is theory -- some claim. It's a different matter to post your personal observations based on experience (I've found or my expression is or whatever).

--------------

**Finally, let me say this: whether you believe WCK has groundfighting (tools) or not, there is a second issue: have you developed them? Developing skill in groundfighting comes from groundfighting, and from actually groundfighting with skilled opponents. So even if we say for the sake of argument WCK has groudnfighting, unless you do it and do it against skilled opponents, it will remain undeveloped. So once again, for all those folks that claim WCK has groundfighting, like Joy, how much time do you spend fighting on the ground? Against whom? What is their level of groundfighting skill? Because even if you are correct and wCK has groundfighting, if you don't put in the time fighting, it will remain theory to you. And if you have spent the time on the ground and have developed it, why not step up and prove it?

[old jong]

Originally posted by old jong : Wing Chun is a pugilistic art that works best at very close range.

**Once again, old jong posts theory. You can almost always spot theory when it's a general statement (like "WCK is . . ." ). I'm not saying his theory is wrong, but that it is theory -- some claim. It's a different matter to post your personal observations based on experience (I've found or my expression is or whatever).

Sorry to hear (but not surprised) that you consider Wing Chun as a long range pugilistic art.It explains a lot.

[SAAMAG]

...I just posted it on the "Open mind" thread...

Originally posted by Vankuen
No Dave you're making sense, I understand exactly what you are saying. (I think....)

Wing chun techniques are alive and transposable and the techniques used in a fight are not chosen by you but rather the person you are fighting...I don't do tan sau, the opponent brings out tan sau. That is true. This is very easy to apply when fighting someone with energies that you are familiar with such as another wing chun person or another CMA with similiar moves and counters.

Fight someone that doesn't play the same or a similar game...and then that concept is a bit harder to apply. When a person never bridges with you (and is good enough to do so) how do you "feel" which movement the opponent is "requesting" next? On the ground in a submission hold, will tan sau or fok sao or biu sau help you to get out of an arm bar or triangle choke, or to even counter one in the process of it's application? If you're fighting a thai fighter and goes to throw a full on round kick at you, are you going to choose tan sau it or gan sau it? (the kick didn't bring it out, as there was no touching before the kick happened....) Some people don't know what to change their techniques into midstream if it's an energy that they've never or rarely been exposed to.

Do you see what I'm saying? So the need to drill based on visual triggers is necessary as well. Not all the attacks coming toward you will be done in a fashion that you will be able to apply the "use whatever technique the opponent brings out" if you've never really been accustomed to being attacked by that technique. And that brings us full circle to having to train in at least all the general areas of fighting....not so much every little tiny little thing like the icepick that Joy mentioned before....but the general areas of fighting such as the long range game with more mobile footwork, the clinching and throwing /counterthrowing game, the ground GRAPPLING game (not just ground "fighting", because then you're missing out on a chunk of the ground game), just some of the areas that wing chun doesn't specialize in. And here's the kicker in doing so...while you're trianing in these areas with people that know them well...you can still learn to apply your wing chun there (if you can) by experimenting with these guys while learning their methods. That would be the ultimate test/training to learn to apply wing chun in those areas.

So you see, there really is no downside...you can expand your wing chun into those areas while training there...while you're learning their methods as well. It's a win win situation.

The reason I know this is because I did it myself when I trained in BJJ and muay thai. I applied wing chun concepts in both areas and still do. In certain exchanges I can use the attributes I gained in chi sau to help me feel where the other guy is going with his arms, but then switch back to JJ techniques when I need to counter or apply something of my own, as nothing else at the time in my wing chun arsenal would've helped me in that INSTANT. In muay thai, as it was mentioned in other posts, I can apply wing chun straight line closing techniques while I fight, even with gloves on, I can intercept (although found in other styles...i learned it in wing chun and JKD and so that's where I credit it.) and so that's what I'm saying here. When I go to the MT even though Im doing muay thai, Im still doing wing chun at times. When I go train with MMA (which I need to do again after my wrist heals) I will still use wing chun gained attributes to help me in certain instances where applicable (when striking or counter striking, sticking to the arms to gain position, etc.)

But at this point I'm rambling...I think you guys get the point here.

[RedJunkRebel]

Originally posted by Sihing73
Hi Phil,

As already mentioned on a previous thread, I think I pointed out that the pole came from outside of the Wing Chun System. I think that it is necessary for our art to continously evolve to meet the needs and threats we may face today. There is nothing wrong, IMHO, with integrating things from outside of the system provided that they are used to enhance and build upon the foundation which has already been laid. I am sure that an examination of the training methods of any art/sport and even educational institution will show changes over time. If not then that entity is most likely on the way to extinction.

Peace,

Dave

Amen. I couldn't agree more.

[Vajramusti]

As already mentioned on a previous thread, I think I pointed out that the pole came from outside of the Wing Chun System. I think that it is necessary for our art to continously evolve to meet the needs and threats we may face today.
Peace,

Dave
-----------------------------------------------------

((Sure Dave. However, wing chun defined it's own pole usage and it blends with wing chun dynamics
and Ip Man's pole usage is different from others who use
poles.

Sure good things keep evolving... and wing chun has.
Ip Man added his stamp to his art-- so did some of his best students and the best students's students. And those changes will continue. And- some major shift could occur if a more comprehensive art emerges.

But not all change is progress. And not understanding the art well enough and mixing extraneous things in our media age which dont mesh well isnt progress. IMO

Many who have not learned the fundamentals well- no longer how long they have been around- can be taken down easily. Adding this and that in grappling wont save them from being taken down again. Cant blame the art for that.))Joy

[RedJunkRebel]

I agree with you Joy. Having a strong foundation in Wing Chun is crucial before anyone should think about bringing in anything new to it. One should learn the entire system before anyone can determine what it may be lacking. Thanks for your thoughts.

[anerlich]

One should learn the entire system before anyone can determine what it may be lacking.

How long does that take? and if you have to learn the whole system before you can determine what is lacking, how can you ever know if/when you have learned the whole system?

Some comments on earlier posts:

The TWC side neutral stance makes single leg attacks more difficult than a stance with a leg forward. However it makes double leg or clinching attacks very much easier. Move to another stance and the takedown artist will also switch his attack.

Throwing a flurry of punches from on top of mount, straight-blast style is not particularly efficient, unless the guy is just about out anyway. If he's flailing around you might crack your hands on his skull. Far better to control his head - one way is to turn his head to the side and hold his jaw down with your palm, where you can target you strikes more precisely as well as restricting his ability to escape. Another is to get an armwrap and move to sidemount (not side control/ cross side), reputedly Rickson's favorite position to deliver strikes. Another common tactic is to lay on the guy and arc punches in to head or body.

WC doesn't really help a lot of you're stuck here, especially if the guy is smothering you. You want your hands close, covering your face or neck. stick out a tan sao or try to chi sao with the guy here, you'll get armlocked PDQ. Reducing damage and excape should be your only priority here.

BJJ, or Machado BJJ as taught in Australia, has a centreline principle for establishing and keeping the guard. Development of tactile sensitivity is also essential. So is efficiency,economy, keeping the elbows close to the body. Some of the WC hands can work in part in applying various submissions or sweeps, and people with WC experience can often adapt to a BJJ technique quickler if you explain it in that language.

I think there are gross similarities between WC and BJJ. as there can be found some commonality among manyt MA's. But if the devil is in the detail, they are chalk and cheese.

TWC has ground fighting. But its sole concern is defending yourself with strikes, mainly kicks, when felled and either taking the guy out from here or getting enough time and space to regain your feet.

That tactic, stylistic considerations aside, can work. Allen Goes used it to excellent effect against Sakuraba in their Pride fight (Belfort much less so in his fight against Sakuraba). Renzo knocked Oleg Taktarov out this way. Of course, both these guys have pretty hot BJJ ground games to back the tactics up.

I have to disagree that you can take WC to a grappling range fgiht with both antagonists on the floor. There is some intersection of WC skills to groung grappling, but that area of intersection is pretty small.

[AndrewS]

Terence writes:

>None of them make it from personal experience, from having successfully fought a skilled groundfighter; none of them are willing to step up and mix it up with a skilled groundfighter to demonstrate their ability. It's all theoretical BS.

Hang on for a second there Terence. I chased sifu Emin around on his 1995 seminar tour, picked up as much of his 'anti-grappling' as I could, and was out fighting full-contact with it inside of a month, and I'm not the only one. I happily stepped up to all manner of folks with grappling backgrounds for a decade, using the stuff I learned from Emin, and frankly, did ok. Is it the be-all, end-all? No, but I, and a bunch of other folks, have taken it out and done our research.

When I tested what I learned from sifu Emin in terms of 'antigrappling' it *encouraged* me that what he was showing was on the right track, and it has influenced the way in which I've studied grappling deeply.

Part of that influence has been an encouragement to go out and study grappling (and other arts), just like he has and continues to do, to take responsibility for my own development.

Part of that influence has been to take certain principles as common in both standing and the floor:

1). Improve position whenever possible with a hierarchy of positions
2). Use attack to improve position- always try to wind up in a better place than you started
3). Use attack as defense- try to stop an opponent's actions in a way that both counters and gives them something they have to deal with
4). Use defense as attack- try to make it so your counters don't just stop the other guy, they make his life hell
5). Everything comes from motion

Part of that influence has been in body mechanics:

1). Use a piece sometimes while the rest of you does something else- link and unlink, a defining piece of mechanics for Wing Chun.
2). Use everything when you can, preferably against as little as possible.
3). Use your hips and spine.
4). Use your adduction to potentiate the flexor component of your trunk
5). use your gluts and low back to potentiate the extensor component of your trunk

Part of that influence has been in training:
1). Work live isolated sparring for each action
2). Do massive amounts of open guard work with no hands allowed
3). Work escapes
4). Catch transitional timing for counters

Part of that influence has been specific techniques:

1). Use your feet like hooks- twisting (huen) to break and control when someone grabs your ankles
2). Constantly kick and scissor when on your back, preventing passes with up kicks
3). Try to destabilize at three points before bridging someone off you
4). Move out of the line of an arm bar to take pressure off your shoulder (i.e. try to get off the 90) while removing the legs (nb- if you're doing this, you're near the end of the armbar and are basically f*cked, going for a last ditch counter).
5). Stand up with an ankle lock
6). Some specific sweeps vs. the over/under guard pass

I've found the first three parts most useful, but that's because my preference is for learning tools and principles, developing my body, then finding the 'techniques' that work for me by getting experience. Generally, when I 'find' something, I go check one of my seniors or partners and look for input on fine tuning.

My goal is *not* to be a guy who does a bunch of different martial arts, but to be a conditioned athlete with a number of strategies which are consistent when standing, on the ground, or with a weapon in hand, with my mechanics and timing in each area reinforcing the other.

This is what I've learned from Wing Chun.

FWIW,

Andrew

[Knifefighter]

Interesting post Andrew. I've often wondered about Emin's "anti-grappling" stuff. I know many people have scoffed at it, but having developed some of my own unconventional anti-grappling tactics, I've always thought that it could have some merit when developed by someone with a wrestling and striking background.

[Nick Forrer]

Yeah its good stuff and the guy has some cool moves. The stuff he showed us:

Single leg takedown. A tries to pick up Bs front leg and B must keep leg on floor using adductor muscles. He can also push down As head to avoid being taken down.

On the floor:

!)They try and pass your guard you stay facing them. Change over once they succeed.

!!)Keep your knees locked together – they try and break through your knees to get into your guard.

!!!)They underhook your leg in preparation to pass your guard, you trap their head with the underhooked leg and knee them with the other leg.

Variations on !!!)-
if they post other hand over free leg knee them in ribs,
if they block knee with hand bring leg over, do a jut gurk on that arm and kick them in the throat
if they pull their head away as they underhook the leg let it go over then turn it into a lan (bar) gerk and kick them away with the free leg.

!!!!)Use a scissor sweep on them and as they go over, turn over post with both hands (so you are facing down) and knee them in the head.

[AndrewS]

Dale,

it's a different take. Honestly, I'm heavily flavored by more conventional sources, and am now kinda re-addressing this stuff with him, as I haven't really gone through it since I moved out here. The past two years my ground work has been BJJ no-gi focused (if you can call flaky on again off again training focused in any way).

The experience Emin draws on is pretty impressive, and it breeds some interesting results.

I've been doing a fair bit of training with him when he's in town, and his take on open guard is pretty cool. He uses the adductin of the main stance to keep the knees tight, is a b*tch to split, is constantly working your balance with his knees, moves his body out with lots of lateral hip motion- this combination makes him extremely able to apply the elbow-in changes, which most people characterize as Wing Chun, to control and redirect hand-fighting while striking, until he can percussively sweep.

Haven't seen him do it on someone good, but I was impressed.

With this, I wonder whether the problems you mention working Wing Chun hands from guard- were you working with a closed guard? Those things do a bit better with some hip usage, motion in transverse or coronal planes, which closed guard kinda limits.

Later,

Andrew

[t_niehoff]

Hi Andrew,

Two things --

First, I know some WCK people, especially those with a background in various grappling methods that have and do mix it up with groundfighters. I put Emin (and Kernspecht) in that category. See my next point.

Second, I'm sure Emin's "anti-grappling system" has merit but it's not "pure" or "traditional" WCK, it's his personal system that combines WCK and grappling. That's not a bad thing. But that's not what I was talking about -- the "WCK has answers on the ground" crew. It's fairly common knowledge that Emin had a grappling background before coming to WCK, and I think he took that background (understanding things like the "heirarchy of positions", etc. which are outside of WCK), combined some basic grappling with some of aspects of WCK, emphasized those aspects (to make it easier for his students to incorporate) and presto! Nothing wrong with that -- but his antigrappling system is "more" than WCK. I give him credit for doing what he's done.

As you know, having the tools are one thing, developing them, and then being able to fight skillfully with them is a horse of a different color. A person can't develop significant groundfighting skill other than by groundfighting with skilled folks. And a person can't know if what they are training will genuinely work or not without mixing it up with skilled fighters. I know that you and some others are actually doing that -- but I also know that there are plenty of "theorists" who aren't but still believe their views are valid. My complaint is directed at those who have never mixed it up with any skilled groundfighters yet *know* (LOL) WCK has all the answers.

[Vajramusti]

More nonsense:
Second, I'm sure Emin's "anti-grappling system" has merit but it's not "pure" or "traditional" WCK, it's his personal system that combines WCK and grappling.
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(((The conclusion is already confirmed in the premise- darned if you do- darned if you dont---

"WCK is no good on the ground.
If you develop defenses on the ground it must not be wck---
must be something personal and not pure and smuggled from previous experience.
Therefore, wck is no good on the ground."

A different view---
Spend quality time in learning wing chun. Practice. Experiment gradually in keeping with development stage.
Wing chun takes quality time in learning- more to it than the sequences in forms.
Practice not being taken to the ground. Develop a live strong but flexible
stance and mobility. If taken to the ground play your own game rather than out envisioning out-grappling a grappler. Learn wing chun attack lines well. Sense the balance points and use the platforms for power delivery that open up whenever they do. You need to sense these things.
Be relaxed. Develop control. And deliverable short power
from all possible angles for strikes or pre strike controls.
The wing chun engine can work with and use many gears and clutches and transmissions of power delivery..
Madame wing chun, Leung Jan, Ip Man and "your"momma
(or Couture or Lidell)wont help you- but your understanding
of wing chun, self confidence and guts could..

Be at peace with yourself- depending on time and place
all kinds of bad luck can occur besides the appearance of
someone interested in taking you to the ground.

Gradually build up your wing chun skills- the chances are slim that you will be attacked by Rickson at the street corner
tomorrow.

Not just theory but no chest thumping on "experience" either- thank you. And- i am not in the marketing business.

BTW- directed at those seriously interested in wing chun
and not directed at wc skeptics and trolls.

If you dont have enough confidence in wing chun- its ok to
find somethong that you can use. Conquer fear- there is life before and after wing chun ( or grappling).
Develop awareness, preparation, best possible good health rather than paranoia.