Wing Chun on the ground

[Ultimatewingchun]

"But like YungChun said, and I have read it also, when things got serious he reverted back to his foundation, enter, trap and straight-line hit..." (James)


SPENT A WEEK talking to and observing Danny Inosanto back in 1979, when he visited Moy Yat's school here in NYC. (In 1979 there was only one JKD school anywhere - and it was Dan's).

Yes... Dan confirmed that Bruce used quite a bit of Wing Chun when the chips were down...

and NO...it wasn't just his curious and expansive personality that led him to study various arts here in the land of diversity (USA).

As a streetfighter, Bruce understood first and foremost that no one system had all the answers to combat.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"But like YungChun said, and I have read it also, when things got serious he reverted back to his foundation, enter, trap and straight-line hit..." (James)


SPENT A WEEK talking to and observing Danny Inosanto back in 1979, when he visited Moy Yat's school here in NYC. (In 1979 there was only one JKD school anywhere - and it was Dan's).

Yes... Dan confirmed that Bruce used quite a bit of Wing Chun when the chips were down...

and NO...it wasn't just his curious and expansive personality that led him to study various arts here in the land of diversity (USA).

As a streetfighter, Bruce understood first and foremost that no one system had all the answers to combat.

Then it would have been interesting if Bruce hadn't died and did go visit GM Cheung in Australia like he was supposed to (apparently Bruce told Cheung a week before he died that after filming The Game of Death, he was going to visit Cheung in Australia and that he'd better be ready) . What do you think would have happened Victor? Cheung was bigger than Bruce, just a fast (remember they timed him at 9 punches a sec. when he was 45 yrs old), in great shape, and very skilled in his TWC. Too bad fate had other plans.

But you know it all and have all the answers for all the questions so disregard this post everyone.



James

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by YungChun
... after all, these are some of the most thoughtful and powerful combat concepts ever devised, spawned from thousands of years of combative, mathematical and philosophical, et al study in China – this is what drives this system, the concepts are unbeatable, but it's up to those training to put them to good use and that's what Bruce did.

The concepts are unbeatable...
The most thoughtful and powerful combat concepts ever developed...
Don't add grappling into your mix because you will be upsetting the mix and disrespecting the WC founders...
WC is a complete system...
WC is more effective, efficient, and to the point than all other systems...

Some of you guys act as if WC were your wife or kids.

[AndrewS]

The first words posted on this thread . . .

<Let's keep the wanking to a minimum and maybe use this thread to actually discuss some *useful* stuff. >

For once, maybe try to ask the question before you post- 'am I saying something of any use'.

My contribution- D*MN! but ATH squats, front squats, OH squats, and snatch-squat presses build your guard. Haven't been rolling much the last few months, but I've been lifting a lot, and Saturday morning's session revealed a lot of physical weak links had been corrected by my lifting.

Later,

Andrew

[Ultimatewingchun]

"But you know it all and have all the answers for all the questions so disregard this post everyone." (James)



Out of respect for Andrew's request, James...I'm not going to respond to this.

And I'm more resolved than ever to ignore your posts from here on in.

[kiddle]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
The concepts are unbeatable...
The most thoughtful and powerful combat concepts ever developed...
Don't add grappling into your mix because you will be upsetting the mix and disrespecting the WC founders...
WC is a complete system...
WC is more effective, efficient, and to the point than all other systems...

Some of you guys act as if WC were your wife or kids.

Maybe people haev confused confidence and faith. Some gals have faith in their teacher or teachers teacher and others develop confidence by successfully applying their theories. I'd rather develop confidence by finding out whats applicable.

repeat failure and refinement until you find whats applicable. And by the way, I got a boxing friend to help me with jabs in exchange for helping him with some of his boxing drills. I tried a technique that was posted on another thread and couldn't get it to work for me. It came down to 2 movements to counter his 1 VERY FAST movement. heh. I got lit up. gonna have to try something else.

[anerlich]

I still think the Bruce thing is debatable, like all forms of history - especially that of WC and JKD. There's no advocacy of using WC on the ground in Tao of JKD or the recently published collection of his writings, though both contain sections on Gene LeBell-style ground grappling and submissions, and the latter quite a few takedowns that are obviously not WC-derived.

In any case, he's been dead nearly thirty years now and I say let him RIP.

"Anyone who thinks basic Wing Chun concepts can’t be applied to X, where X is come kind of physical dynamic with a tangible objective doesn’t get the concepts IMO."

There's a difference between "able to be applied" and "most suitable". Opinions vary. If it's so great on the ground, teach it to MMA fighters and start raking in the bucks.

"Try and reinvent the wheel? No way! Try and replace a wooden horse and buggy wheel with a steel belted radial – Yes, any day! "

Which is the horse and buggy and which the steel belted radial in this case? A topline Ferrari will destroy horse drawn transportation and just about anything else on the road, but if you try to get it to perform functions best performed by a submarine you are, er, sunk.

"Don't add grappling into your mix because you will be upsetting the mix and disrespecting the WC founders"

LOL.

[Edmund]

Since staying on the ground too long is not a great idea, the emphasis for street fighting applications would be on strategies to get them down and get you up: e.g. sweep or take their back from the guard.

Similarly for standing, aside from the "run away" idea, often getting pummelled is a good reason to tie them up in a clinch of some sort. The clinch position is also a place you don't want to stay too long - your opponent's friends could take the opportunity to start laying into you while you're tied up. So you'd emphasize ideas that keep them tied up but don't allow them to take a strong tie up of their own.

Originally posted by sihing
If your on the ground, there is little mobility, whereas if your standing and getting pummelled, you can always "Run" away. WC concept and philosophy is similar to the ground grappling in that it tries to do the samething standing up, limit what the opponent can do by trapping his arms and striking while at the same time trapping the footwork. This is much harder to do just for the reason I gave above, anyone can just run away when it is attempted.

James

[anerlich]

"What do you think would have happened Victor?"

Nobody really knows, though it would have been a fascinating meeting, no doubt.

Dan Inosanto had a fair bit to do with William Cheung over the years, but still elected to take JKD down a different path.

What all this has to do with the thread topic escapes me, unless the "what if" bout had occurred, and both Bruce and W Cheung had elected to fight on the ground. A most unlikely scenario.

[sihing]

Originally posted by anerlich
"What do you think would have happened Victor?"

Nobody really knows, though it would have been a fascinating meeting, no doubt.

Dan Inosanto had a fair bit to do with William Cheung over the years, but still elected to take JKD down a different path.

What all this has to do with the thread topic escapes me, unless the "what if" bout had occurred, and both Bruce and W Cheung had elected to fight on the ground. A most unlikely scenario.

Yes I agree it would have been a fascinating encounter. Sorry to have taken the thread off topic, please continue on....

James

[Ultimatewingchun]

Andrew Nerlich:

This is the FORWARD that Dan inosanto wrote in the first book that William Cheung ever wrote: BIL JEE...

"It is a privilege to write an introduction for Wing Chun Bil Jee, The Deadly Art of Thrusting Fingers by Master William Cheung (Cheung Chuk Hing), who is considered the number one fighter in the Wing Chun clan by the majority of its practitioners.

My training in Wing Chun began in 1964 under the late Bruce Lee. During this training, Lee often told many stories about Cheung's prowess as a street fighter in Hong Kong. When he spoke of Bill Cheung, he spoke with respect.

It was Bill Cheung, his senior in the Wing Chun system who helped train him to win the Hong Kong championships in 1957, and from whom he learned some of the concepts that later led to the creation of his Jeet Kune Do.

After witnessing Master Cheung demonstrate and perform Wing Chun, I stand in awe of his style. He is the number one authority in the original Wing Chun system, which contains superior footwork and entry techniques that the modified version lacks.
I consider Wing Chun Bil Jee, The Deadly Art of Thrusting Fingers a great contribution, not only to the Wing Chun style and its practitioners, but to the martial arts world in general." (Dan Inosanto)


And Dan also worked with weapons against William Cheung in the photos within William's book a few years later: KUNG FU BUTTERFLY SWORDS.

And Ted Wong co-wrote a book with William Cheung years later comparing TWC and JKD.

As you know.

But you're right - Dan still chose to stay on the JKD path he was on after his meeting William and his exposure to TWC.

And my opinion about that it is this: Dan was committed to the JKD path of crosstraining and amalgamation of styles.

William Cheung was not. He has added some moves here-and-there through the years that come from other styles - but not to the extent that I would consider TWC to be a MMA.

And as much as I respect my sifu William Cheung and the TWC style - I think that Dan's philosophical approach is better in the final analysis.

Because it covers more fighting possibilities.

And I'm sure you agree.

[anerlich]

Victor:

I have all those books!

And yes, I agree.

And, dare I say it, as well as being the titular head of original Jun Fan JKD Dan Inosanto is also a BJJ Black Belt.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Andrew:

I didn't know that about Dan.

Good for him!

[Vajramusti]

Forewords and even books dont always give a clear picture
of what people really think- in this case Inosanto. he generally shows respect to most other good martial artists he interacts with.

But we are drifting away from the thread topic-dont you think?

I know that we differ on this. But generally its a bad idea to go to the ground. Sometimes one may not have a choice
due to incomplete training in wc compared to the other fella in his/her art- or
slippery ground or shoes or multiple attackers. Its important to get up as soon as possible- till then relaxed wing chun
controlling motions and strikes can still work. The strikes that i have seen by some wing chunners on the ground dont seem to be very powerful. Seems like repeating the same strikes again and again. Missing is short power.

Of course it has to be practiced and experimented with but
completely shifting to learning jj ona mat is playing the jj game. Also- time is better spent improving and adjusting one's wing chun for serious wing chun folks- rather than arresting continued wing chun development and starting from scratch in another art.

This is not just theory- experiential as well. Many things can be used. Depending on circumstances the simultaneous neck pulling hand properly done combined witha move or strike with the other hand. And, proper relaxation and adjustments and not straightening out the elbow
avoids arm bars in the process too.. Strong ygkym leg training comes in handy on the ground. Legs have an important role on the ground- hips do- hands do. Good wing chun trains moves for all partsof the body. Its not always self evident.
And yes - it can ad should be experimented with without sacrificing the full spectrum of wing chun development.
Sorry-gotta go w/o proof reading for typos.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Forewords and even books dont always give a clear picture
of what people really think- in this case Inosanto. he generally shows respect to most other good martial artists he interacts with. "


LEAVE IT to you, Joy...to try and throw doubt upon Dan Inosanto's words - since they praise William Cheung.

God...what a shock.