Why so scared of the ground?

[chisauking]

Before this forum turns into the official BJJ forum, may I ask all the people who's constantly repeating that WC don't have all the answers and it's weak on the ground, how did you arrive at this conclusion? And, why are you so scared of the ground that you feel the need to focus so much time on this element of fighting?

[anerlich]

Loaded questions, grasshopper.

how did you arrive at this conclusion?

Various viewpoints have been done to death on this forum and are proceeding at present on several threads.

And, why are you so scared of the ground that you feel the need to focus so much time on this element of fighting?

I'm not scared of the ground. It's never done anything to me.

Why are you so scared of viewpoints you disagree with?

[t_niehoff]

Like Andrew, I'm not scared of the ground -- in fact, it can be loads of fun. But, I've seen firsthand what good groundfighters can do; just like I've seen what folks with really good takedown skills can do. What I have not seen is *any* of the "WCK has the answers on the ground" group actually prove that they have any skills on the ground. So let me ask you, how did you arrive at the conclusion that WCK is strong on the ground or has answers to good groundfighters? Let me guess -- theory?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good posts...Andrew, Terence.

[SAAMAG]

I'm noticing the same thing...but to be honest...it's because I KNOW wing chun has no ground game in comparision with people that specialize on the ground...it's the fact that people don't want to accept it that it's still going. I just find it odd at how hard it is for others to admit it.

No one wants to be told that what they're practicing is inferior or doesn't have all the answers...deep down inside they simply don't want that feeling that they've wasted their time or maybe they really do feel that their style has all the answers...sadly the latter is usually from people that have never fought enough to find out they're wrong.

It's not so much the BJJ or groundfighting as much as it is the principle of the matter behind it...the idea that quite possibly this one art doesn't have all the answers .

[Airdrawndagger]

I have no problem with the fact that WC doesn't address the ground game. Who does? Why is this such an important discovery? Arn't we stateing the obvious?

[SAAMAG]

we are stating the obvious...some people here seem to think otherwise. That's where it all began.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by chisauking
may I ask all the people who's constantly repeating that WC don't have all the answers and it's weak on the ground, how did you arrive at this conclusion?

From experience.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Good posts...Andrew, Terence.

Off course, typical behavior and reinforcement of those in the click.

James

[anerlich]

Off course, typical behavior and reinforcement of those in the click.

You meant "of course" and "clique", right?

Do you have a counterargument, or is ad hominem the best you can do?

[sihing]

Originally posted by anerlich
You meant "of course" and "clique", right?

Do you have a counterargument, or is ad hominem the best you can do?

Thanks for the grammar lesson MOUTH BOXER. Typical Anerlich behavior, with the spelling and grammar checks but nothing meant personally right? As usual. Why don't you counter argue for me since you do know it all, or represent yourself to.

No counterargument required, just an obvious observation by some, but glad to see you to coming up to support your comrades.


James

[KPM]

Originally posted by chisauking
Before this forum turns into the official BJJ forum, may I ask all the people who's constantly repeating that WC don't have all the answers and it's weak on the ground, how did you arrive at this conclusion? And, why are you so scared of the ground that you feel the need to focus so much time on this element of fighting?

---Even though I have been labeled as a "non-fighter" and "theoretician" by some (despite the fact that I gear up and spar as realistically as feasible on occasion), I try to keep a balanced outlook on things. Wong Shun Leung called WCK "The Science of In-fighting." That's a pretty good description. It points out that WCK is a specialized fighting method.....it is meant for the "in-fighting" range. It is not and was never meant to be an "all-inclusive" method. We don't have extended stances and long kicks to fight on the outside like TKD does. We don't have extensive ground-fighting techniques to fight on the ground like BJJ does. Systems that try to be all-inclusive often end up being a "jack of all trades but master of none." Sure there are WCK techniques or concepts that can be extrapolated to work on the outside range....or on the ground. But are WCK ground-fighting methods going to be as good as something like BJJ? Heck no! That is there specialty....not ours! Is BJJ going to be as good as WCK on the inside (standing)? Heck no! That is our specialty...not theirs! I see nothing wrong with a WCK player that wants to expand their repertoire also training in BJJ. Heck, if I had more time for training I'd be doing it myself! But I would keep it as two separate things......WCK when on my feet....BJJ the minute I hit the ground! It is the "blending" that I don't think is necessary. The combining of things like WCK and boxing to work in a range in which WCK is already designed to operate. Develop your WCK. If you want to be proficient in another range or phase of fighting, then cross-train in something that works that range. But don't "mix & match"...you'll just end up with a "mash." For me, I have my hands full just trying to develop my WCK to its full potential! Just my opinion, of course. :-)

Keith

[t_niehoff]

KPM wrote:

---Even though I have been labeled as a "non-fighter" and "theoretician" by some (despite the fact that I gear up and spar as realistically as feasible on occasion),

**The fact that you "gear up and spar on occasion" is good (it's better than nothing) but so do the silat guys, the shotokan guys, etc. Occasionally sparring with one's classmates isn't what I've been talking about -- it's making fighting, actually doing WCK, the core of one's training. That's something else.

I try to keep a balanced outlook on things. Wong Shun Leung called WCK "The Science of In-fighting." That's a pretty good description. It points out that WCK is a specialized fighting method.....it is meant for the "in-fighting" range. It is not and was never meant to be an "all-inclusive" method. We don't have extended stances and long kicks to fight on the outside like TKD does. We don't have extensive ground-fighting techniques to fight on the ground like BJJ does. Systems that try to be all-inclusive often end up being a "jack of all trades but master of none."

**But the point is we need to be a "jack of all trades" -- that is, a well-rounded fighter -- if we want to fight successfully against skilled well-rounded fighters (or even "defend" ourselves on the street).

Sure there are WCK techniques or concepts that can be extrapolated to work on the outside range....or on the ground. But are WCK ground-fighting methods going to be as good as something like BJJ? Heck no! That is there specialty....not ours! Is BJJ going to be as good as WCK on the inside (standing)? Heck no! That is our specialty...not theirs!

**I agree.

I see nothing wrong with a WCK player that wants to expand their repertoire also training in BJJ. Heck, if I had more time for training I'd be doing it myself! But I would keep it as two separate things......WCK when on my feet....BJJ the minute I hit the ground! It is the "blending" that I don't think is necessary. The combining of things like WCK and boxing to work in a range in which WCK is already designed to operate. Develop your WCK. If you want to be proficient in another range or phase of fighting, then cross-train in something that works that range. But don't "mix & match"...you'll just end up with a "mash." For me, I have my hands full just trying to develop my WCK to its full potential! Just my opinion, of course. :-)

**The only flaw in your position is that IME whenever you take two methods and *integrate them* into your personal game, each will in some ways, perhaps minor but perhaps significantly, effect the other and result in changes in both. In other words, your WCK will change how you do (or use) BJJ and your BJJ will change how you do (or use) your WCK. This doesn't mean that your WCK or your BJJ is "watered down" or "less pure"; it means that you do with each what you are supposed to do -- take it and make it your own.

[chisauking]

I'd asked a very simple question yet not one is willing to answer.
If you think it's so important to focus so much time on the ground -- why? Was your decision based on personal experience? Was it based on club sparring with rules or actual street fighting experience? Have you or have you not been taken down to the ground in a real fight, and what level of WC skills were you at that stage?

If you people don't want to answer, that OK. I'm not going to upset anybody's chip or pasta plate. But, it's just a shame to see this once constructive Wing Chun forum turn into the sister BJJ forum for self promotion

[Merryprankster]

chisauking,

Actually, you received a few good answers, one of them was "experience," another was "I've seen what a good groundfighter can do," another was "I think we should be well-rounded fighters."

You chose to ignore those answers and follow up with further questions. Not their fault.