Pong Lai stance

[mantisben]

I'll assume by "Stance" in the case of Neutral Stance and/or Fighting Stance we mean "Pre-Fighting Posture", since the word "Stance", to me, kind of defines what is happening from the waist down, where as posture would define what is happening from the waist down, and from the waist up.

Anyway, I think the best Pre-Fighting posture would be the one that allows you to execute the offensive and defensive techniques for your fighting style most effectively. For example, a Wing Chun pre-fighting posture may involve holding the hands along the center-line, since this would be most ideal for executing the Wing Chun techniques of offense and defense. On the other hand, Choy Lee Fut fighters might not see the Wing Chun posture as most effective for executing their circular strikes.

Wrestlers have their own pre-fighting posture which, I'm guessing, looks nothing like what Wing Chun or Choy Lee Fut fighters use.

[Oso]

first, understand I'm not debating that what you are describing isn't a good posture. it is. it's basically what I do...although sometimes I flip out and use a rediculously low stance but usually when I'm tired and have retreated to a tactic of waiting for full commitment on my opponents part and generally take a hit in the process of crushing my opponent with some crazy grizzly ninja shiat.

second, my points have been about taking what i've always used as a pre fighting posture and trying to find an analog within the new mantis stuff I'm learning.

In both of my previous long term training experiences, there was a posture taught in the basic training as the pre fighting posture and, in the case of the second teacher, it was in every form we did.

So far what I've seen from mantis I would actually say that the 'catches cicada' posture might be thought of as the PFC but i really hate trying to fight from there. But, every set I do, with the exception of your BYTT, starts from there.

anyway, just exploring.

[-N-]

Originally posted by Three Harmonies
Chin tucked, shoulders slightly forward but not slouching, one hand/foot ahead of the other, elbows hanging down and tight to the body, hands clenched in a loose fist held up and in front of the body/face, knees slightly bent with a springy-ness too them, weight pretty evenly distributed sometimes shifting back and forth a bit, feet firm and solid on the ground but with an alertness to them ready to spring into action. etc.

That is what I use for the most part. I learned it as monkey stance.

N.

[-N-]

Originally posted by Oso
So far what I've seen from mantis I would actually say that the 'catches cicada' posture might be thought of as the PFC but i really hate trying to fight from there. But, every set I do, with the exception of your BYTT, starts from there.

How about this... pre fighting posture can be feet together, hands down at sides(if you're wanting to look at the forms). My teacher used to have us practice standing flat footed with our arms crossed and the other person attacking.

N.

[Oso]

That is what I use for the most part. I learned it as monkey stance.

great, that's what I'm talking about. Is it part of your normal, basic posture set or something else taught seperately or later?

How about this... pre fighting posture can be feet together, hands down at sides(if you're wanting to look at the forms). My teacher used to have us practice standing flat footed with our arms crossed and the other person attacking.

ok, the first part of that is just kinda silly. I know you guys think I'm just being stubborn but I'm not. I'm also not talking about looking like the forms but utilizing what the forms and other specific training is supposed to be teaching us.

The second part is right on and is how I have trained and teach self defense applications. The philosophy being that you don't want to especially give away that you know 'kung fu' by immediately dropping into a stance.

Also, apologies to Tianan as it seems this thread has been totally hijacked...I tried to take the question to another thread. Hopefully it's OT enough to stay though I wish more people would chime in.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

You sound like I feel sometimes. Either not quite getting the point across or others not quite understanding your mindset.

If I understand correctly it is an interesting observation. You're looking for a zero-point or postureless posture that all others flow from.

I think we all fight like this yet nowhere is it found in any of the forms. Maybe in the old days they actually fought from the basic stances and we've just progressed since then. Or maybe they never stood waiting and went right into attacks until it was over. Real fights don't have time for waiting, especially if it's life or death.

My neutral stance is about what has been described although if I'm feeling good and confident I'll set myself in a cat or wide horse just to taunt or pysch out my opponent.

I also switch between motionless and continous movement to see which causes the most trouble for my opponent. Each opponent is different and you have to find out what gives you the advantage against that particular fighter. I really don't believe fighting only one way.

[-N-]

Originally posted by Oso
great, that's what I'm talking about. Is it part of your normal, basic posture set or something else taught seperately or later?

We do this from the start as part of training how to stand and step.

Originally posted by Oso
ok, the first part of that is just kinda silly. I know you guys think I'm just being stubborn but I'm not.

Maybe only just slightly silly. But formwise, in that starting position, we are supposed to be balanced, alert, relaxed, and ready move.

My teacher also had us practice applications from that starting position as well.

N.

[Oso]

If I understand correctly it is an interesting observation. You're looking for a zero-point or postureless posture that all others flow from.

correct but more specifically, something identifiable as 'mantis'. not necessarily buglike but something that is in the curriculum and/or forms.

like -N-'s stance being taught to him as a monkey stance. that was exactly what I was looking for.

Or maybe they never stood waiting and went right into attacks until it was over.

maybe not. but in a fight or sports match w/ an evenly matched opponent there will be times when you are just circling or moving while you figure out a stratagem or a way out of the situation because you are afraid you are about to get your ass handed to you.

I agree with the rest of the comments in your post.


-N-

We do this from the start as part of training how to stand and step.

My first teacher did this with us and the neutral stance was part of our initial stepping method training but not in later forms.

The posture from my second teacher was used in initial training but was also present in the sets.

another teacher that I did not study very much with utilized the xing yi posture everyone is referring to (because part of the system was xing yi) but had an emphasis on a 'natural posture' that actually had some specific things you were supposed to do.

the shorinji kempo folks I'm friends with have a 'kempo fighting stance' that is their base and I'm pretty sure it's present in their sets as well.

just some examples from my personal experience and the base of my inquiry.

Maybe only just slightly silly. But formwise, in that starting position, we are supposed to be balanced, alert, relaxed, and ready move.

right, gotcha. we used to practice from a variety of 'inobvious stances': leaning against a wall, one foot on a chair, sitting.

[-N-]

Originally posted by Oso
My first teacher did this with us and the neutral stance was part of our initial stepping method training but not in later forms.

We train this neutral stance more than any other.

It shows up in our version of Chop Chui. At the first turn around we go to the koi ma sam chui sequence. We use 3 fast monkey steps rather than bow and arrow stance here. This is considered the advanced way to do the sequence.

N.

[Oso]

I don't know chop chui but I get the gist of using the monkey stepping instead of the hill climbing. thanks.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

So then what's the (mantis) name of this monkey stance and is there a picture of it anywhere?

I'm interested as well. Wah Lum forms mostly start with feet together (after the bow) and jump right into the first move, like Bung Bo. There really is no 'I'm ready to fight now' stance.

[-N-]

Originally posted by Oso
I don't know chop chui but I get the gist of using the monkey stepping instead of the hill climbing. thanks.

Here ya go, Oso. Some pics from Sifu Tony Chuy's site. 1st three pics (hill climbing version) on the 4th line are known as koi ma sam chui.

http://www.northernmantis.com/tsahpchoy.html

Typical would be several fast monkey steps to blitz, and a low stance with a power move to finish off if necessary. In this case, the 4th pic on that line, stealing heart punch.

N.

[Oso]

ok, I've seen that page before, gotcha...I think Sifu Albright used to have chop choi on his old website too...it's not in Pong Lai, or at least in the Pong Lai lower levels.

As Jake mentioned above, stances are used for throws and I totally agree...I finish our basic throw dong pu(sp? maybe it's deng bu) throw in a hill climbing..haha, makes sense as deng bu.

I know, sorta know that is, Jake's White Ape steals the peach and it seems like the movement you are referencing in chop choi is similar to a sequence in the middle of the first road of the White Ape...but it is done with what Jake calls small mountain climbing and is certainly forward moving and agressive.