Pong Lai stance

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Ha! You'll look like that again Oso, just keep working out.

Let me get this straight, you were stationary in this stance before you lunged?

I'm thinking no, which would just make this a transition that just looks like the stance in discussion. Great visual though. It helps to see the leg positions we're talking about.

Just to clarify, to me:

a stance is a rooting position. Doesn't matter how quickly you move in and out of it, it's stationary for the time needed to issue the power needed to execute the technique either offensive or defensive.

a transition is a stepping position. Used for setting up a technique where max power is not required. Usually the power is generated at the point where you settle into (root) the stance.

[Oso]

Ha! You'll look like that again Oso, just keep working out.

Let me get this straight, you were stationary in this stance before you lunged?

basically, yes.

but, I need to codify my definitions of 'stance' and 'transitioning' before I reply further.

I don't disagree with you...just a slightly different angle I think.

[Tainan Mantis]

I am just showing some variety here guys.
I will show more later.
The stances are not rigidly set and depend on the person as well as the intent in the particluar move.

As for the names I go with Jake.
The minor hill climbing stance.
But other schools use a different name and there can be confusion as my Shifu stdied with different masters who all use different terminology.

So my understanding of jade ring is a motion, not a single posture.
It can be seen in the drill called "jade ring step jade ring hands"

About the pic of the high up stance it is like 108 says middle.
But when I learned it he also called it bu ding bu ba.
Somethin like, "not nail not eight(as in the chinese character)."

[Three Harmonies]

I agree with the motion comment. I hope none of you would start out a fight in a stance such as Jade Ring, or Xiao Deng Shan Bu, or Cold Rooster, or Deng Shan Bu.....etc. In our system, Xiao Deng Shan Bu is used to take someone down over your knee (essetnially a fancy trip). I would not be caught dead in that stance unless I was in contact with my opponent some way or another.
Just my cents.....if I have any
Jake

[Indestructible]

Hey, my teacher teaches Jade Ring footwork and striking in his mantis too. Do any of you guys do a jade ring float of mass?

[Oso]

Originally posted by Three Harmonies
I agree with the motion comment. I hope none of you would start out a fight in a stance such as Jade Ring, or Xiao Deng Shan Bu, or Cold Rooster, or Deng Shan Bu.....etc. In our system, Xiao Deng Shan Bu is used to take someone down over your knee (essetnially a fancy trip). I would not be caught dead in that stance unless I was in contact with my opponent some way or another.
Just my cents.....if I have any
Jake

Jake: No. Not in it's extreme low position but a higher position but with the weight more evenly distributed. As I said, higher up, this looks pretty much like a western boxers posture.


So, what does everyone use as a neutral position?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Oso

So, what does everyone use as a neutral position?

I suppose the best way to describe my neutral stance is a high San Ti.

[Oso]

so, my train of thought on this is if the posture with which one fights from is not in the ba shi or in the forms anywhere...is it any wonder we are often criticised for not looking like our style?


if we train the ba shi and train our forms but fight using another type of posture as a neutral starting point for combat then how do we 'look' like mantis fighters?


just some thoughts...

[Three Harmonies]

All too often we all get caught up in "looking" like our style. Let's face it....we are little bugs in that case! Not too flattering if you know what I mean.
Instead of analyzing how one "looks" try to envision(?) the flavor or spirit of the animal if you will. Let me use a couple of analogies from Xing Yi, since they have Twelve (some ten) animals.
When I do the monkey form (Hou Xing) it is not my intent to act nor look like a monkey, but rather fight with it's spirit. What I mean by that is monkeys are naturally cautious, deceptive, and tenacios. I want to encapture that same type of charachter. When one fights you and you utilize the monkey theory, you first appear timid and afraid, but this is nothing more than a deception to make your opponent over confident and to attack with more vigor. Once that happens the monkey explodes into action working very quick and aggresive. (I wish I was more web savy and I would post a vid of what I mean! )
So when one thinks about utilizing Mantis type energy or spirit, think about these pointers:
-Mantids are naturally small, so they cannot meet force
on force. Utilize absorbing, parrying, etc.
- Mantids are also very agile and quciker than ****! Ties
into above.
- Mantids pull their prey in close to finish them off
(Because of the structure of their arms they have
more leverage in close). If I need to explain how this
ties into anyones Mantis training, well.... we need to
talk!

I understand where you are coming from Oso, I was their once myself. But I think if you continue to analyze and question like you do, you will find the answers. Then down the road when your students ask, you will smile and remember back when you were concerned about such things.
I cannot recall and fight (street or otherwise) where someone lined up in a "traditonal stance" and won! There was a clip on Emptyflower a week or two back, with a Karate school fighting a Drunken Boxing school. The Drunks (He He ) tried to do there swaying int he breeze, look like I am about to fall over, routine. Meanwhile the Karate guys literally kicked the sh!t out of their heads (because their guard was lowered). The few times (and I mean few) that the Drunks hit the Karate players they bounced off, simply because they did not have a firm stance. They were trying to do the goofy drunked style stepping. It was rather embarassing to be honest. I would have to drink after than performance!
My point is..... the karate players were in a solid "boxing" stance, and it proved valuable both defensively and offensively! It still looked like Karate though. For what it is worth.

Cheers
Jake

[Oso]

I'm not talking about looking like a bug.

I totally understand about capturing the spirit of the style's metaphorical animal. My first 7 years of training was hung gar and it was all about that...and I get the spirit of the mantis pretty well though I don't always feel I can get my body to work it.

I'm talking about fighting with the tools w/ train with.

{huh, just kinda realized I jumped threads a bit with my last post. It really belongs on my thread questioning posture/stance usage}

[Three Harmonies]

Okay. In that case the majority of the stances are used as takedowns (Kao Die). Fancy trips. I too have had trouble getting Yu Huan Bu (or Qi Xing Bu depending on terminology) too work well. I usually use Xiao Deng Shan Bu (or some variant thereof) when I take folks down.
Jake

[Oso]

hokay...so, what you are saying is that there isn't this 'neutral' stance that is trained in traditional mantis?

It just seems to me that in a fighting context there should be a zero place that everything else flows from.

you are not always attacking or always defending. sometimes you are trying to figure out wtf to do with this guy who seems like he's about to whip your azz.

my teacher in hung gar had a basic stance he called a 't' stance that he taught us to fight from and we worked application and transitions from this neutral stance to all the others.

my last teacher (stylistically a mongrel) had a base stance that we worked from which was present in the forms and from which we also trained applications and transitions to other stances.

I agree that the stances are used for throws, that's been consistant througout my martial training.

[Three Harmonies]

Maybe I am not following you, but a "neatural" stance is what I consider a fighting stance, which is basically a boxing stance, or like Bung Bo stated, a modified San Ti from Xing Yi

Cheers
Jake

[Oso]

right, we are talking about the same thing.

But, why are we talking about our 'neutral' fighting posture as something from another style? And, niether xing yi or western boxing figure into the development of mantis.

just trying to make sense of it all.

thanks for the discussion.

[Three Harmonies]

Okay Oso, i'm really trying here....so hang tight! You know you are my favorite crazy white dude from Asheville right??
I am trying to see through the glasses you have on, but am having a tough time. The way I understand fighting (in general), is that one should stand ina posture as follows:
Chin tucked, shoulders slightly forward but not slouching, one hand/foot ahead of the other, elbows hanging down and tight to the body, hands clenched in a loose fist held up and in front of the body/face, knees slightly bent with a springy-ness too them, weight pretty evenly distributed sometimes shifting back and forth a bit, feet firm and solid on the ground but with an alertness to them ready to spring into action. etc.
Now I call this a fighting stance. THis is what I fight out of regardless of style. I used the boxing stance and xing yi's san ti only as examples. Nomenclature means little to me, so you call, whatever fits the above bill, it whatever you want. For me utilizing the specific stances of Mantis or Xing Yi, is when I execute a technique of some sorts, not when I am squaring off. Does this make better sense? Is there such thing as worse sense? Am I rambling on and on and on and on..................

Hope this helps. This much thinking makes my brain hurt ya' big Oso!

Jake