SNT w/weights?

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Cant believe everything that one sees or hears!

......or reads.

[Mark Rasmus]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
In my view, the sets (like SNT) are generally not for training but are for learning and for teaching.

Hi Terence,

Here are a couple questions?
1. I wonder why Yip Man is said to have taken 1 hour to do
his Sil Lim Tao form?
2. Why do so many people consider the praying thice to Buddha section of Sil Lim Tao to be a chi kung exercise.
Just another View
Mark Rasmus

http://au.geocities.com/markrasmus/retreat.html

[45degree fist]

if your just starting, SNT is about self awarness. body lines, reference points and basic WC motions. forget about energy right now

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by draggin dragon
I'm sure this isn't an original idea. For all I know it is common practice in WC. I am only a beginner.

What is the advisibility of using weights while doing SNT? Wrist weights that would'nt interfere with hand movements. What would be the benefits vs. the negative consequences, if any?

Thank You.

This doesn't really apply to standing in SLT, but there's a savvy five-year student in my school who sometimes uses weights on his ankles when he practices Wing Chun. Just an option if you'd like to give it a try.

To me, it brings to mind the old joke:

"Why are you hitting yourself in the head?"

"It feels great when you stop."

Regards

[AmanuJRY]

Ankle weights is good practice, IMO. I've used them in practicing leg techniques.

[Mark Rasmus]

Originally posted by 45degree fist
if your just starting, SNT is about self awarness. body lines, reference points and basic WC motions. forget about energy right now

I agree with you here. My take on it is that breath meditation is the theme of the form while:
1. Discern and relax the bone alignment. (through the movements)
2. Discern and relax the joints and tendons. (through the movements)
3. Discern and relax the fascia and skin surface. (through the movements)
4. Discern and relax through the hairs on your skin.(through the movements)

This calms and relaxes the physical fabrications
Then move onto discerning the bodies energy field in several stages. Then discern the states of mind which I break into the four Buddhist form mindstate(Jhanas) and four formless mindstates.
All these are stages of my approach to refining SLT with breath meditation as its theme. I believe that the breath connects mind energy and body together to work as one unit.
Here is a sutra from the Buddhist Canon on breath meditation. I encorporate the above exercises into the first four points listed below. There is a bit of synthesizing to make it work but the theme is the same. The latter points (4-16)refer to mind states. They are further defined in other sutras which need to be cross referenced to be understood. Ultimately it leads to deeper levels of awareness and body connection within yourself and your environment.
Mark Rasmus


Breath Meditaton
.
"Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination?

"There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out.

"[1] Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. [3] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body, and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. [4] He trains himself to breathe in calming the bodily processes, and to breathe out calming the bodily processes.

"[5] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to rapture, and to breathe out sensitive to rapture. [6] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to pleasure, and to breathe out sensitive to pleasure. [7] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to mental processes, and to breathe out sensitive to mental processes. [8] He trains himself to breathe in calming mental processes, and to breathe out calming mental processes.

"[9] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the mind, and to breathe out sensitive to the mind. [10] He trains himself to breathe in satisfying the mind, and to breathe out satisfying the mind. [11] He trains himself to breathe in steadying the mind, and to breathe out steadying the mind. [12] He trains himself to breathe in releasing the mind, and to breathe out releasing the mind.

"[13] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on inconstancy, and to breathe out focusing on inconstancy. [14] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading], and to breathe out focusing on dispassion. [15] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on cessation, and to breathe out focusing on cessation. [16] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on relinquishment, and to breathe out focusing on relinquishment.

http://au.geocities.com/markrasmus/retreat.html

[kungfu cowboy]

I wonder if a weighted vest would help training the legs and stance. The weight would be just around your core, like you just weighed more. Putting anything on your arms sounds like a real bad idea.

[t_niehoff]

Mark Rasmus wrote:

Hi Terence,

Here are a couple questions?
1. I wonder why Yip Man is said to have taken 1 hour to do
his Sil Lim Tao form?

**The operative word here is "said" -- there are lots of stories, lots of rumors, and folks use these to promote their views. And even if it is true, how can we say if there were benefits from doing that? I will concede that a set can -- not that it should or is best used this way -- be used as a means for solo training some limited aspects . For example, one can focus on performing the set quickly to promote speed (like YKS). But IME these things are better developed in other ways. As I said, the linked sets are principally learning/teaching devices, and they're used for that alone.

2. Why do so many people consider the praying thice to Buddha section of Sil Lim Tao to be a chi kung exercise.

**Anything can be made into a hei gung exercise if that's what someone wants to do. Of course, if one's objective is to develop fighitng skill hei gung is a waste of time, but that's another issue.

Just another View

**WCK carries a lot of "stories" and cultural baggage. Most of that just gets in the way of development.

--------------

dfl wrote:

That's an interesting viewpoint. Am I correct to assume that after you have learned from the sets, you "discard the useless" and just skip to the "pressure testing" as your main training methodology?
Do you mind elaborating on what it is you learn from the sets and what you teach with them

**The linked sets contain the core and derivative (from that core) movements and aspects of WCK's fighting method. I could choreograph a linked set that contains the core movements of western boxing arranged thematically, etc. in much the same way as WCK. In fact, if boxing were a chinese martial art, that's exactly what someone in the past would have done. And then there would be all those folks that would believe that the linked boxing set contained some magical training instead of just being a means to preserve and teach those core aspects. (And they'd make snotty remarks like Old Jong's -- "that explains a lot" -- beleiving as they do that somehow doing a prearranged pattern of boxing movements gave them some skill.).

**The answer to your question is that everytime I move, I do the forms, not the choreographed sequence that we call SNT, CK, BJ, but those elements that make up the linked sets. Performing a prearranged, linked sequence of movements is a great way to learn and preserve; it's not a very good way to develop any skill.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by kungfu cowboy
I wonder if a weighted vest would help training the legs and stance. The weight would be just around your core, like you just weighed more. Putting anything on your arms sounds like a real bad idea.

Yeah, I have a 60 lb. weighted vest. It does help train the legs (imagine being 60 lbs. heavier, and then suddenly losing it), but It's no replacement for good weight training.

[anerlich]

Ankle weights is good practice, IMO. I've used them in practicing leg techniques.

Don't try running with them on (bad for your gait, increased risk of injury) or fast kicks (risk of hyperextension injuries).

Slow kicks with ankle weights are a great exercise.

[Mark Rasmus]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
**The operative word here is "said" -- there are lots of stories, lots of rumors, and folks use these to promote their views. And even if it is true, how can we say if there were benefits from doing that? I will concede that a set can -- not that it should or is best used this way -- be used as a means for solo training some limited aspects . For example, one can focus on performing the set quickly to promote speed (like YKS). But IME these things are better developed in other ways. As I said, the linked sets are principally learning/teaching devices, and they're used for that alone.

Hi Terence,
You make good points. I have often thought of scrapping the forms and just teaching the movments and theories in stages as I feel there are better ways to practice chi kung and develop skill than in the form. But at the same time I want to hold some respect for the tradition.

Originally posted by t_niehoff

**Anything can be made into a hei gung exercise if that's what someone wants to do. Of course, if one's objective is to develop fighitng skill hei gung is a waste of time, but that's another issue.

There are some top fighters from the last generation who would not agree. Look at Master Huang Sheng Shyan for example. A reknowned Taiji master. He took on dozens of challenge matches, undefeated. When he was sixty he stepped in the ring with the Asian heavy weight wrestling champion and made him look like an idiot. I have a video of him standing a meter or so away from a person and then lifting his hands up and the person lifts off their feet and sling shots across the room, then another guy runs at him to receive the same and then a third person gets shot across the room, no physical bridge made.
Master Ma from Wu style did the same demo many times.
The Aikido founder is "said" to have done the same.
I have seen dozens of videos of unknown masters throwing groups of people around (strangers) without bridge contact. A tv station challeneged one guy to prove it wasnt hypnosis, so they took him too the zoo, he pushed over an elephant with out bridge contact.
The list and "stories" go on and on, so to put chi kung down is closing the door to the pinnacle of fighting skill.
Unfortunately to meet a qualified person is rare, but the basic tools of Chi kung are in Wing Chun never the less.
Just another View
Mark Rasmus

http://au.geocities.com/markrasmus/retreat.html

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by anerlich
Don't try running with them on (bad for your gait, increased risk of injury) or fast kicks (risk of hyperextension injuries).

Slow kicks with ankle weights are a great exercise.

Nothing like that. Just leg-lifts in kicking/intercepting shapes (not kicking), holding for balance, and circle and other stepping, etc. Although, running with the vest reminds me of boot camp.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Mark Rasmus
I have often thought of scrapping the forms and just teaching the movments and theories in stages as I feel there are better ways to practice chi kung and develop skill than in the form. But at the same time I want to hold some respect for the tradition.

Mark,
I think you would be doing your students a huge dis-service by removing the forms from Wing Chun training. It's more than tradition, IMO.

Just one person's opinion.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Agree with Bill 100% on this...

The forms are invaluable as a reference point to return to now and again...

and SLT does provide a breathing, mental focusing, chi development exercise that also reviews quite a bit of the essential moves and principles within the system.

We do SLT at 2 out of the three classes that I teach per week.

I never regret it.

[Matrix]

Victor,

Thanks for the confirmation.
We usually start each class with SLT, but it's done fairly quickly - about 5 minutes or so. We are expected to train the forms on our own time. Class time is best used in working with a partner.

Like you, I never regret time spent on forms.
There's a lot more to them than may be immediately apparent.