How do you condition without going against Tai Chi principles?

[Tai Chi Shawn]

OK, I'm not trying to win the award for most consecutive posts in a 24 hour period. I just happen to have a little extra time this last day or so. A rare thing for me.

My dilemma: I don't want to be a fat Tai Chi stylist. Wu training encourages you to look to Chi, not muscle strength for power, speed, etc. I have heard it further stated that muscle-developing exercises are counter-productive to Tai Chi training. Well ... thats great if you're one of those guys who can eat cheese burgers and stay ripped even while sitting behind a computer all day. I know guys like that, but I'm not one of them. I eat well, and I exercise and I can't drop a gawddamm ounce of weight. I used to teach Kempo professionally, and it took 4 months of 70 hours per week of training/teaching to finally drop some weight. When I stopped teaching, I gained it ALL back in 3 weeks. I sh#t you not, three weeks.

My question: what strength and leanness training can I do that will not interfere with the goals of Tai Chi? I know its a loaded question, but does anyone have a similar experience and a suggestion or 2?

shawn

[Pilgrim666]

Tai Chi Shawn,

Just remember, bacon is not a vegetable.

Mike

[count]

You might try about an hour of footwork drills, and do some free sparring. That wouldn't violate any martial principles, let alone Tai Chi ones.

[Chief Fox]

Don't know if it violates the principals of tai chi but you could go running a few times a week. It's quick, it's easy and you can do it just about anywhere. Add some pushups, pullups and situps and you're doing pretty good.

[SPJ]

Yes.

Actually, you need both. We have to learn how to relax and then focus Qi and Jing to a certain part of the body while the rest of the body is totally relaxed and just relaying the Jing without stops.

On the other hand, you also need your regular workout.

Chen Tai Ji Lao Jia Yi Lu or Chen Chang Xing's form first routine.

It is used to learn how to be soft, flexible and circular all the time.

Use your body to move your arms and hands. Yi Shen Dai Bei.

Er Lu Pao Zui, or cannon fist 2nd routine.

You use your hand to lead the body. Yi Shou Ling Shen.

[SPJ]

First routine focuses on how to be gentle and Peng Lu Ji An.

Second routine focuses on how to be hard and Fa Jing with Cai Lei Zhou Kao.

These are how I was trained with Chen Tai Ji.

So you need to learn how to be soft and hard both.

In the beginning, we all learn the moves first and then get them right everytime.

Whenever you practice everyday, you are already conditioning all of your body.

[Tai Chi Shawn]

Pilgrim666: Thats enough outta you, wiseguy! My eating habits are really quite good. I'm vegetarian, and my diet consists mainly of fruits, vegetables, nuts, legumes and some dairy. Little to no bread, pasta etc. Technically I should be ripped.

OK, I appreciate the "try running, and push ups" comments, but I likely should have made a few things more clear.

-I know how to exercise.
-I was was told specifically by Sifu that push ups, sit ups, etc., cause the muscles to become tight, thus defeating the "stay loose and fluid" objective.
-My metabolism is "super-naturally" slow. I don't mean slow. And I don't mean I'm lazy. I mean defying science and logic, stumping doctors and a nutritionist slow. Inspite of my level of activity, which is high.

I'm looking for a little feedback from someone who has similar experience, or knows someone who trained thier asses off and got nowhere, but later found a solution. One that, of course, is martial arts based.

shawn

[Brad]

Personally, I think your teacher is just flat out wrong about the push ups and ab work thing, as that's what I was originally going to write when I first saw your post :P My teacher also has his students do handstands. I was also going to recomend looking at different wieght lifting exercieses(consult an expert first, though). If you wieghtlift, you want to make sure to lift for power and not bulk(which is why I recomended talking to an expert first).

Running, push-ups, ab work, etc. are really the best ways I can think of to contribute to wieghtloss. Also, pay attention to when you eat... like eating a meal right before bed isn't a good idea, eat some carb/protean thing(like a turkey sandwhich) imediately after a hard workout might help contribute to building stronger muscles. Maybe think about seeing a doctor(thyroid problem might prevent you from losing wieght). It's hard to see give good advice though without actually seeing what your workout and diet routines are like though. Can you describe in more detail?

[imperialtaichi]

Originally posted by Brad

I was also going to recomend looking at different wieght lifting exercieses(consult an expert first, though). If you wieghtlift, you want to make sure to lift for power and not bulk(which is why I recomended talking to an expert first).

You can also try to exercise with the Tai Chi long spear. From what I know the Yang family practiced with it during the Qing dynasty. Start with a standard 1.5m one, then work towards a long heavy one (such as 4m at 6cm diameter).

The idea is to "dance" with it with minimal strength. This trains your ability to have fine motor skills even under tremendous stress. If you do it properly, you will be able to get a pretty good work out, improve your Tai Chi skills, and without bulking up on muscles.

Cheers,
John

[Brad]

Good idea, I forgot about that kind of training :-) It's popular with xingyi and baji guys too, and Chen stylists do that kind of thing, but with a staff (maybe they use spear sometimes too, I don't know).

[Vash]

. . . If someone says "weight training will make you stiff" or in any way implies weight training or resistance training as a whole is not good for all activities, then the someone is wrong.

Utterly, completely, without doubt, wrong.

As for weight loss, of course I would recommend iron training.

As for diet, I'd recommend you start hammerin' down on the protein shakes - whey since your a vege . . . veget . . . one of them people who doesn't eat the greatest thing in the culinary history of the fukcing world. Try to get at least 1 gram of protein (not soy - avoid soy like the de-manning plague it is) per pound of body weight.

Oh, you do stance training? Resistance training.

You move against the force of gravity? Resistance training.

You bend/twist/move at all in Tai Chi? Resistance training.

Muscle move the body. They must have some measure of tension to do this. Yes, the intent is to be relaxed, but if you're too relaxed, you're falling down so that I can more efficiently stomp on your crotch.

And eat some meat.

[Brad]

What's wrong with soy? Just wondering, because my parents are allways giving me all this soy junk(soy milk, soy sloppy joes, etc.)

[Vash]

Increases aromatization of testosterone into estrogen.

[Tai Chi Shawn]

Wow Vash, did you grow up with repressive vegetarian parents?

kidding

You're right about resistance training being evident in just about everything. I do eat protein (fish, milk, eggs), though I stopped downing protein shakes (yes whey - I don't do soy) because I was gaining weight quicker on them (no it wasn't muscle - unless muscle collects around your neck, gut and thighs). Understand, I gain weight eating goddam celery. I know its impossible by any nutritionist standards - I had one tell me I must be lying to him, cause its not possible. Well ... I live the unfortunate truth of it. I work my ASS off and reap no rewards (ok, yes other than the excess weight I'm strong and healthy, but you get my point. Besides, chicks don't give you credit for looking good on the inside).

I've thought about the thyroid thing. I may check that out next.

shawn

[Vash]

Not exactly - BBQ was the top, bottom, and middle of the food pyramid (may it burn in an undying hell).

I'm just amazed that so many would say "this is not good" when it is so easy to find out why it is "that dayum good."

As for the weight thing . . . I'm not a nutritionist. I'm not even a doctor, though I play one when a nice lookin' girl wants. I do, however, feel you would be much impressed with your fat loss (ne'er equate the numbers on the scale with your actual progress - use it as a reference, but not as your goal) were you to integrate full-body weight training, high intensity interval training (energy system work) into your life.

I promise it will help, because Vash and. Wrong don't fit in the same sentence.